Christianity and science

[MorningGlory]

MorningGlory, Bowap gave a long list of names of individuals he names as thesitic evolutionists. The only one on the list whom I have read is Francis Collins. Bowap is correct in putting Collins on that list. Collins believes humans descended from apes and he believes Christ is his saviour. I think you are declaring Collins is not a true Christian. You would be wrong to do that. In fact, based on Collins' faith I would have to say everything you state in the above quote is a result of misunderstanding. Why don't you read Collins and see first hand what he has to say? I don't think you would be making some of the claims you do if you were more familiar with him. Of course, I could be wrong.

Yes, you could be wrong. In fact, you could be SO wrong as to have me rolling on the floor! Someone who claims to be a Christian and supports the idea that humans descended from apes is either insane or a solid heretic so you are correct in saying that I'm calling him a nonbeliever. In either case, the person is seriously misguided and delusional.

Why are you answering for Bowap anyway? I believe I've asked him a couple of times now if HE is a believer. No answer; how odd. Oh, and I will read Francis Collins; I believe in knowing as much as I can stuff into my head. But there's no way it will change my belief that the man you refer to is NOT a Christian.

[MorningGlory]

Is Richard Colling a non-believer, or 'no true believer', simply because he said, "I believe that it is a matter of when, not if, the evolutionary paradigm WILL be integrated into the evangelical Christian theology. If not, the Christian faith will be relegated to cultural obsolescence. With the genetic data derived from the human genome project and other sources, the evolutionary connectedness of life on earth can no longer be denied. Therefore to build the foundation of the Christian faith on opposition to evolution is not only silly, it is suicide for the long-term viability and credibility of the faith."

Does it make me a non-believer if I agree with him?

Pretty much. And that was great dancing you did around actually giving an answer, btw.

[Botz]

I would just like to add that I do not consider a Christian who believes in evolution, either delusional or insane. I think there is a vast amount of scientific information that Christians who are part of the scientific community seriously consider, and have come to what they believe are inevitable conclusions based on the apparent observational reality of science, and the method in which it has been promoted.

I have the utmost respect for their conclusions, and I can understand something of the persuasive nature that the weight of such apparent evidence must have on them, or anybody really. As a Believer myself, I do not bury my head in the sand and hope the difficult questions will go away, but I cannot merge the evolutionist version of Creation with that of the Bible as it would pose more questions than answers, and as has already been touched upon, we would then be dictating to the word of G-d which bits to accept, and which bits to reject, to fit our own world view based on what is seen as scientific evidence.

From my view I think the path down which evolutionary science has progressed means that a framework has developed that had its genesis in the heart of man, and has unfortunately become the Philosopher's Stone and the foundational basis on which all of the sciences rest, and I believe that ultimately it is built on a bed-rock of sand. It's very nature is self-perpetuating and amongst evolutionary science there is a curious amalgam of observational, testable evidence, and wild speculation....it is very persuasive,very convincing and scientifically endorsed in such a way that it appeals to reason and the intellect and has in my opinion been unofficially adopted as the religious belief system of Atheists.

[MorningGlory]

I would just like to add that I do not consider a Christian who believes in evolution, either delusional or insane. I think there is a vast amount of scientific information that Christians who are part of the scientific community seriously consider, and have come to what they believe are inevitable conclusions based on the apparent observational reality of science, and the method in which it has been promoted.

I have the utmost respect for their conclusions, and I can understand something of the persuasive nature that the weight of such apparent evidence must have on them, or anybody really. As a Believer myself, I do not bury my head in the sand and hope the difficult questions will go away, but I cannot merge the evolutionist version of Creation with that of the Bible as it would pose more questions than answers, and as has already been touched upon, we would then be dictating to the word of G-d which bits to accept, and which bits to reject, to fit our own world view based on what is seen as scientific evidence.

From my view I think the path down which evolutionary science has progressed means that a framework has developed that had its genesis in the heart of man, and has unfortunately become the Philosopher's Stone and the foundational basis on which all of the sciences rest, and I believe that ultimately it is built on a bed-rock of sand. It's very nature is self-perpetuating and amongst evolutionary science there is a curious amalgam of observational, testable evidence, and wild speculation....it is very persuasive,very convincing and scientifically endorsed in such a way that it appeals to reason and the intellect and has in my opinion been unofficially adopted as the religious belief system of Atheists.

Very well said, Botz, especially the last sentence. I too have noticed that ALL atheists, both on this forum and others, are rabidly pro-evolution. Does this mean they are all scientists? I really, really doubt that; most of them are lay people. Or does it mean that they're simply promoting their master's agenda (even unknowingly)? What better way to win over those who are weak in faith, or have no faith, than to convince them they are not created in His likeness but, instead, are merely the result of billions of years of random mutation and natural selection? Such an accident of evolution would have no relationship with God. And also note how relentlessly they push this theory. You would think if they just believed in the TOE, coupled with their disdain for the account of Creation in Genesis, they would just go about their lives. shaking their heads at the perceived silliness of Christians. But they don't, do they? Instead they spend untold amounts of time and effort trying to convert and convince, especially Christians. One only has to ask themselves...why? I'm sure the answer is readily apparent.

[Guest shiloh357]

Instead they spend untold amounts of time and effort trying to convert and convince, especially Christians. One only has to ask themselves...why? I'm sure the answer is readily apparent.

I think it is important to note that they come to sites like this because it is less likely they will run into a serious Creation Scientist. Rather than find messageboards populated by scientists that believe in the creation account and argue with them, they choose to debate on sites with people who are not professional scientists and are not in a position to actually challenge them.

Ther come here looking for Christians who don't know science so that they can intimidate them with scientific terminology and jargon (which are usually only parroting from someone else's website). In effect, they are cowards. They come here because they probably would get eaten alive on a web site with real Creation scientists. They feel safe maligning them from afar. They can say stuff that they wouldn't have the courage to say if this were a Creation science messageboard.

They think posting links and regurgitating scientific terminology either makes them exprerts, or at leasts provides enough of an illusion of expertise that they can't be exposed for the cowards and frauds they really are on a board like this.

They really had a grasp on the drivel the espouse over here, they wouldn't waste time with us. They would spend their time on a Creation science messageboard debating Creations scientists.

[Guest yod]

I believe in evolution!

I just think they got it backwards...man is making a monkey of himself more every day

[MorningGlory]

Instead they spend untold amounts of time and effort trying to convert and convince, especially Christians. One only has to ask themselves...why? I'm sure the answer is readily apparent.

I think it is important to note that they come to sites like this because it is less likely they will run into a serious Creation Scientist. Rather than find messageboards populated by scientists that believe in the creation account and argue with them, they choose to debate on sites with people who are not professional scientists and are not in a position to actually challenge them.

Ther come here looking for Christians who don't know science so that they can intimidate them with scientific terminology and jargon (which are usually only parroting from someone else's website). In effect, they are cowards. They come here because they probably would get eaten alive on a web site with real Creation scientists. They feel safe maligning them from afar. They can say stuff that they wouldn't have the courage to say if this were a Creation science messageboard.

They think posting links and regurgitating scientific terminology either makes them exprerts, or at leasts provides enough of an illusion of expertise that they can't be exposed for the cowards and frauds they really are on a board like this.

They really had a grasp on the drivel the espouse over here, they wouldn't waste time with us. They would spend their time on a Creation science messageboard debating Creations scientists.

Spoken with your usual bluntness, Shiloh. And, no, I'm not criticizing you for doing so. I would add, though, that a true Christian is impervious to anything the evolutionists can muster. It's those that are brand new in their faith, unsure of Scripture or wavering that concern me.

[MorningGlory]

I believe in evolution!

I just think they got it backwards...man is making a monkey of himself more every day

[Guest shiloh357]

Instead they spend untold amounts of time and effort trying to convert and convince, especially Christians. One only has to ask themselves...why? I'm sure the answer is readily apparent.

I think it is important to note that they come to sites like this because it is less likely they will run into a serious Creation Scientist. Rather than find messageboards populated by scientists that believe in the creation account and argue with them, they choose to debate on sites with people who are not professional scientists and are not in a position to actually challenge them.

Ther come here looking for Christians who don't know science so that they can intimidate them with scientific terminology and jargon (which are usually only parroting from someone else's website). In effect, they are cowards. They come here because they probably would get eaten alive on a web site with real Creation scientists. They feel safe maligning them from afar. They can say stuff that they wouldn't have the courage to say if this were a Creation science messageboard.

They think posting links and regurgitating scientific terminology either makes them exprerts, or at leasts provides enough of an illusion of expertise that they can't be exposed for the cowards and frauds they really are on a board like this.

They really had a grasp on the drivel the espouse over here, they wouldn't waste time with us. They would spend their time on a Creation science messageboard debating Creations scientists.

Spoken with your usual bluntness, Shiloh. And, no, I'm not criticizing you for doing so. I would add, though, that a true Christian is imperious to anything the evolutionists can muster. It's those that are brand new in their faith, unsure of Scripture or wavering that concern me.

That is true. I don't think we are in any danger of losing anyone to their point of view. I am just pointing out their obvious reasons for wanting talk science with people who are not scientists. It makes no sense unless they are just here to spread their view in a forum where they don't have to respond to a serious challenge. Similar to how in the animal world, the predators always look for the ones they they think are weakest in the herd.

[MorningGlory]

That is true. I don't think we are in any danger of losing anyone to their point of view. I am just pointing out their obvious reasons for wanting talk science with people who are not scientists. It makes no sense unless they are just here to spread their view in a forum where they don't have to respond to a serious challenge. Similar to how in the animal world, the predators always look for the ones they they think are weakest in the herd.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.