Mental Illness

[Guest TheChief]

"He wrote the Bible and inspired it as perfect and without error. (King James Version Bible)"

Not to sidetrack here, and not denying the KJV is a fine Bible, here you are making the claim that the translators of the KJV were without error in their translation, even though the words you find italicized were added to the text by the translators so the language "flowed." Further, the last 6 verses of Revelation were missing in the documents the translators were using, so the translators found a Latin Bible, translated it into Greek, then retranslated it into English. The KJV we have now is actually the third revision of the original 1611; if it was "perfect and without error," why was it necessary to revise it three times? Here are the original 1611, your revised version, and the "raw material" from an Interlinear. Notice any differences?

1611 - (2 Tim. 1:7) "For God hath not giuen vs the spirit of feare, but of power, of loue, and of a sound minde."

Yours - (2 Tim. 1:7) "For God hath not given us THE SPIRIT OF FEAR; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."

Interlinear - 2Ti 1:7 ου 3756 γαρ 1063[FOR NOT] εδωκεν 1325(5656)[GAVE] ημιν 2254 ο 3588[uS] θεος 2316[GOD] πνευμα 4151[A SPIRIT] δειλιας 1167[OF COWARDICE,] αλλα 235[bUT] δυναμεως 1411[OF POWER,] και 2532[AND] αγαπης 26[OF LOVE,] και 2532[AND] σωφρονισμου 4995[OF WISE DISCRETION.]

1611 - (John 10:10) "The theefe commeth not, but for to steale and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might haue life, and that they might haue it more abundantly."

Yours - (John 10:10) "THE THIEF cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Interlinear - Joh 10:10 ο 3588[THE] κλεπτης 2812 ουκ 3756[THIEF] ερχεται 2064(5736) ει 1487[COMES NOT] μη 3361[EXCEPT] ινα 2443[THAT] κλεψη 2813(5661)[HE MAY STEAL] και 2532[AND] θυση 2380(5661)[MAY KILL] και 2532[AND] απολεση 622(5661)[MAY DESTROY :] εγω 1473 ηλθον 2064(5627)[CAME] ινα 2443[THAT] ζωην 2222[LIFE] εχωσιν 2192(5725)[THEY MIGHT HAVE,] και 2532[AND] περισσον 4053[ABUNDANTLY] εχωσιν 2192(5725)[MIGHT HAVE "IT".]

1611 - (James 1:17) "Euery good gift, and euery perfect gift is from aboue, & commeth downe from the Father of lights, with whom is no variablenesse, neither shadow of turning."

Yours - (James 1:17) "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

Interlinear - Jas 1:17 πασα 3956[EVERY] δοσις 1394[ACT OF GIVING] αγαθη 18[GOOD] και 2532[AND] παν 3956[EVERY] δωρημα 1434[GIFT] τελειον 5046[PERFECT] ανωθεν 509[FROM ABOVE] εστιν 2076(5748)[iS] καταβαινον 2597(5723)[COMING DOWN] απο 575[FROM] του 3588[THE] πατρος 3962 των 3588[FATHER] φωτων 5457[OF LIGHTS,] παρ 3844[WITH] ω 3739[WHOM] ουκ 3756 ενι 1762(5748)[THERE IS NOT] παραλλαγη 3883[VARIATION,] η 2228[OR] τροπης 5157[OF TURNING] αποσκιασμα 644[sHADOW.]

1611 - (1 John 4:18) "There is no feare in loue, but perfect loue casteth out feare: because feare hath torment: hee that feareth, is not made perfect in loue."

Yours - (1 John 4:18) "There is no fear in love; but PERFECT LOVE casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

Interlinear - 1Jn 4:18 φοβος 5401[FEAR] ουκ 3756 εστιν 2076(5748)[THERE IS NOT] εν 1722 τη 3588[iN] αγαπη 26[LOVE,] αλλ 235 η 3588[bUT] τελεια 5046[PERFECT] αγαπη 26[LOVE] εξω 1854[OUT] βαλλει 906(5719) τον 3588[CASTS] φοβον 5401[FEAR;] οτι 3754 ο 3588[bECAUSE] φοβος 5401[FEAR] κολασιν 2851[TORMENT] εχει 2192(5719)[HAS,] ο 3588 δε 1161[AND HE THAT] φοβουμενος 5399(5740)[FEARS] ου 3756 τετελειωται 5048(5769)[HAS NOT BEEN MADE PERFECT] εν 1722 τη 3588[iN] αγαπη 26[LOVE.]

1611 - (Matt 17:15) "Lord, haue mercie on my sonne, for he is lunatike, and sore vexed: for oft times he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water."

Yours - (Matt 17:15) "Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he FALLETH INTO THE FIRE, and oft into the water."

Interlinear - Mat 17:15 κυριε 2962[LORD,] ελεησον 1653(5657)[HAVE PITY ON] μου 3450 τον 3588[MY] υιον 5207[sON,] οτι 3754[FOR] σεληνιαζεται 4583(5736)[HE IS LUNATIC] και 2532[AND] κακως 2560[MISERABLY] πασχει 3958(5719)[sUFFERS :] πολλακις 4178 γαρ 1063[FOR OFTEN] πιπτει 4098(5719)[HE FALLS] εις 1519[iNTO] το 3588[THE] πυρ 4442[FIRE,] και 2532[AND] πολλακις 4178[OFTEN] εις 1519[iNTO] το 3588[THE] υδωρ 5204[WATER.]

1611 - (3 John 1:2) "Beloued, I wish aboue all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, euen as thy soule prospereth."

Yours - (3 John 1:2) "Beloved, I WISH ABOVE ALL THINGS that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth."

Interlinear - 3Jn 1:2 αγαπητε 27[bELOVED] περι 4012[CONCERNING] παντων 3956[ALL THINGS] ευχομαι 2172(5736)[i WISH] σε 4571[THEE] ευοδουσθαι 2137(5745)[TO PROSPER] και 2532[AND] υγιαινειν 5198(5721)[bE IN HEALTH] καθως 2531[EVEN AS] ευοδουται 2137(5743)[PROSPERS] σου 4675 η 3588[THY] ψυχη 5590[sOUL]

I would agree with you that the Bible, in it's original autographs, is perfect and without error. Unfortunately, the translators were working with copies of copies, not original documents. To claim here and now that the translators made a perfect translation without error is to grant them divine inspiration that not even they laid claim to.

[SamP]

Chief, my friend, where in the world you got your info, I don't know. However, you are very wrong and badly mistaken in your post just before this.

I do use the original 1611 King James Version, not the third one you mentioned. Your info is full of mistakes and errors and you need to go to your source that you got this information from and prove to yourself how wrong it is.

However, I know what I'm talking about and where I'm coming from. I did not say the men who translated for King James was perfect. I did say that God led them to write exactly "what He wanted." They were used of God to do the 1611, whether they realized this or not. God can use a donkey to talk or He can use us feeble humans in any way He wants.

Spend some time in the Hebrew and Greek and you'll find the 1611 KJV Bible perfect and without error.

I appreciate the opportunity to have read comments and posted on this thread. I will finish with this thread by saying again, the 1611 KJV Bible is perfect and without error. God Bless.

[Believer1997]

Mental illness is something that Satan can use and exploit to his own end. It's a human weakness, a way forSatan to get his cloven-hoofed foot in the door. I don't think all mental illness is demonic in nature. Nor do I view illness in general as being demonic in nature. That's medieval thinking. In the year 2009 we're WAY past trepanning rituals and the application of leeches. Give science credit where credit is due.

Just so you know, medicine still uses trepanation and leeches.

Trepanation is a treatment used for epidural and subdural hematomas, and for surgical access for certain other neurosurgical procedures, such as intracranial pressure monitoring. Modern surgeons generally use the term craniotomy for this procedure. The removed piece of skull is typically replaced as soon as possible. If the bone is not replaced, then the procedure is considered a craniectomy. Trepanation instruments are now available with diamond coated rims (Diamond Bone Cutting System), which are less traumatic than the classical trephines with sharp teeth. They are smooth to soft tissues and cut only bone.

Nowadays, leeches are routinely used to drain blood from swollen faces, limbs and digits after reconstructive surgery.

They are especially useful when reattaching small parts that contain many blood vessels, like ears, where blood clots can easily form in veins that normally drain blood from tissues. If the clots are severe, the tissues can die -- drowned in the body's own fluid -- because they are deprived of oxygen and other vital nutrients.

Leeches are so effective that the FDA in 2004 classified them as the first live medical devices.

You are correct about these methods being used - also the use of 'medical' maggots to dispose of gangrenous flesh in badly infected wounds.... I was shocked to read about this, but doctors have had amazing results with it.

[Gauntlet]

Mental illness is something that Satan can use and exploit to his own end. It's a human weakness, a way forSatan to get his cloven-hoofed foot in the door. I don't think all mental illness is demonic in nature. Nor do I view illness in general as being demonic in nature. That's medieval thinking. In the year 2009 we're WAY past trepanning rituals and the application of leeches. Give science credit where credit is due.

Just so you know, medicine still uses trepanation and leeches.

Trepanation is a treatment used for epidural and subdural hematomas, and for surgical access for certain other neurosurgical procedures, such as intracranial pressure monitoring. Modern surgeons generally use the term craniotomy for this procedure. The removed piece of skull is typically replaced as soon as possible. If the bone is not replaced, then the procedure is considered a craniectomy. Trepanation instruments are now available with diamond coated rims (Diamond Bone Cutting System), which are less traumatic than the classical trephines with sharp teeth. They are smooth to soft tissues and cut only bone.

Nowadays, leeches are routinely used to drain blood from swollen faces, limbs and digits after reconstructive surgery.

They are especially useful when reattaching small parts that contain many blood vessels, like ears, where blood clots can easily form in veins that normally drain blood from tissues. If the clots are severe, the tissues can die -- drowned in the body's own fluid -- because they are deprived of oxygen and other vital nutrients.

Leeches are so effective that the FDA in 2004 classified them as the first live medical devices.

Wow. I did not know that.

[Smalcald]

I believe that mental illness is exactly what it is.....mental illness. Now I also believe that the enemy can take advantage of someone's mental illness, just as God can find ways to use it for His glory. As someone who has struggled with major mood swings, obsessiveness, and chemically imbalanced depression, I don't think that ALL mental illness is caused by demonic opression or possession. What about all of the young helpless children with mental disabilities? Are they demonically opressed or depressed? I have spoken with some Christians who think that ALL mental illness in ALL cases means there is a spiritual problem. I disagree wholeheartedly. It's an illness just as the flu is an illness. It's still physical! What do you think?

Mental illness is no different from cancer or heart disease or any other illness so I would agree with you and probably go farther. If mental illness is caused by Satan than so is cancer. Now in the larger context ALL disease and physical death itself was and is caused by Adams fall through the temptation of Satan, so in that respect yes the common human maladies on this earth are caused by Satan, including mental illnesses.

mental illness is very much different from cancer and heart disease. with cancer and heart disease, it doesn't matter much what thoughts are going through your mind. with mental illness, it matters a great deal what thoughts are going through your mind. if mental illness were no different from cancer or heart disease, therapy would do no good. you can talk to a person who has cancer all you want, but that won't change their disease, will it. talk therapy with a person who has a mental illness has done a lot to change their condition. how can you say they are no different?

I meant that they are both medical conditions. Certainly heart disease is VERY much different from cancer and treated differently, mental illness is also very much different from cancer and treated differently, but all are medical conditions. I believe mental illness is one of the cruelest types of illness in that indeed it impacts our actual thoughts.

Can God cure mental illness? Yes of course, just as God can cure cancer and heart disease. However a Christian, who would seek medical-professional help if he/she had a heart condition along with prayer, should also seek medical-professional help for mental illness, along with prayer.

[Guest TheChief]

Chief, my friend, where in the world you got your info, I don't know. However, you are very wrong and badly mistaken in your post just before this.

I do use the original 1611 King James Version, not the third one you mentioned. Your info is full of mistakes and errors and you need to go to your source that you got this information from and prove to yourself how wrong it is.

However, I know what I'm talking about and where I'm coming from. I did not say the men who translated for King James was perfect. I did say that God led them to write exactly "what He wanted." They were used of God to do the 1611, whether they realized this or not. God can use a donkey to talk or He can use us feeble humans in any way He wants.

Spend some time in the Hebrew and Greek and you'll find the 1611 KJV Bible perfect and without error.

I appreciate the opportunity to have read comments and posted on this thread. I will finish with this thread by saying again, the 1611 KJV Bible is perfect and without error. God Bless.

SamP,

It is my belief that there is absolutely zero (0) chance of your looking at any contrary position papers, as the vast majority of KJV-Only protagonists I have had the pleasure to interact with are wrapped up so tightly in their purported idol that they refuse to see the forest for the trees. In the very unlikely event you do decide that your group has not "cornered the market on wisdom and knowledge" (which, if you think about it, is a trait seen in the Gnostics of old) I leave you the following references. I do not expect to change your mind, nor will I try.

Your call to study the Hebrew and Greek does not fall upon deaf ears. What do you suppose those strange scribblings found within the Interlinear are? I do not claim to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar, but have resources available to make up for that shortcoming.

You never did explain about those pesky italicized words, you know, the ones that were not in any of the manuscripts (that the translators had to add; something like 3,000 of them). Guess when the original scribes/writers wrote the books, they "omitted" some things, eh?

As an aside, can you see any difference between

John 3:16 "For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life." (KJV - 1611)

and

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (KJV - 1611 (Revised))

Here is a copy of the first page of Hebrews (KJV - 1611): http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjv-heb.html

Sorry, you can't convince me you use the original "1611 KJV" when you don't even POST it!

"Which Bible is the Word of God?" By Elgin L. Hushbeck, Jr. http://www.consider.org/library/which.htm

"The Text of the New Testament" (Adapted from Evidence for the Bible by Elgin L. Hushbeck, Jr.) http://www.consider.org/library/text.htm

Alpha & Omega Ministries, http://vintage.aomin.org/kjvo.html

"Gimme the Bible that Paul Used - A look at the King James Only debate" by Eric Pement http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5951/KJVOnly.html

"The Debate Over the King James Version" by Rick Wade, Probe Ministries http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/kjvdebat.html

"The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Modern Translations?" by James White

"The King James Version Debate: A Plea For Realism" by D. A. Carson

"Inerrancy: Its Meaning and Application for the Inspiration of the Biblical Texts" By Jim Morgan and Joe Cross

"Christian Inspiration & Inerrancy" by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D.

"New Testament Documents : Are They Reliable?" by F.F. Bruce

"The Inspiration, Inerrancy, and Authority of the Bible" by Dr. Ron Rhodes of "Reasoning from the Scriptures"

"Christian Inspiration & Inerrancy" by M. James Sawyer, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Theology at Western Seminary, San Jose Campus

"Is the King James the Best Version" - James White debates D. A. Waite (Audio)

"The KJV and the Deity of Christ" - James White debates KJV-Onlyist Thomas Holland (Audio)

"New Age Bible Versions Refuted" - James White debates Gail Riplinger (Audio)

[Gauntlet]

KJV-Only is getting dangerously close to the idolatry of Bible worship. Confusing the medium for the message. In this case, the medium and the message are not the same thing.

(And incidentally I use the NIV.)

[Guest man]

i too, have suffered depression. and i too, have experienced peace in this midst of it. but it wasn't, by far, the abundant life Jesus promised. if depression was an all-encompassing, full-time thing, few people would survive it. i don't think the abundant life Jesus talked about was an occasional peace, but a life-expanding peace. if i'm miserable 80% of the time, i would not call that abundant life.

What is your definition of "abundant life"?

[Guest man]

i too, have suffered depression. and i too, have experienced peace in this midst of it. but it wasn't, by far, the abundant life Jesus promised. if depression was an all-encompassing, full-time thing, few people would survive it. i don't think the abundant life Jesus talked about was an occasional peace, but a life-expanding peace. if i'm miserable 80% of the time, i would not call that abundant life.

What is your definition of "abundant life"?

[Deepblue]

Charitow, I know you are trying not to speak to Chief or others on the forum directly by saying they are demonically oppressed, but you are. Above you told Chief you were not trying to refer to his issues by using the word "you", but Chief has been diagnosed as being Bi-polar, so no matter what, you are saying he is demonically influenced or in bondage, just as you are saying the same thing to me. When he says he knows his relationship with God is fine, you are essentially telling him it isn't with what you are presenting, and that is not your place to say, because you don't know that. I'll tell ya what, I have been off my meds for almost two weeks now, and I realize I made a big mistake. Gotta get back on em tomorrow. And doing research and actually living with serious mental illness is a different thing. Mental illness isn't a chemical imbalance that gets out of whack. In the scriptures, didn't demonic possession also showcase physical harm as well? Why can't we say that people who are physically ill be under the influence of satan???? And to say that we can't have an abundant life because of our mental illness is so wrong. Isn't His grace sufficient? What about Paul's thorn in the flesh? Is it possible that we with mental issues may have a thorn in the flesh as well? I don't know....but if Paul knows that in his weakness God is made strong, and His grace is enough, then it is the same for us. And since you are not suffering from serious mental illness, you have no right to say who can or can not have the abundant life.