Adam and Eve: Original Sin

[canuckamuck]

Sorry, I did not mean the tree itself was unnecessary. I meant the knowledge of good and evil was unnecessary. The tree or something like the tree representing free will, was essential.

Edited June 21, 2009 by canuckamuck

[Guest shiloh357]

The law was necessary to teach about sin and man's sin nature. The tree represented something that was unnecessary, the knowledge of good and evil. And it was the transgression that made the bible so thick, especially the first parts.

No, that is not true. The the Bible does not say the tree represented something unnecessary. The doesn't represent anything for that matter.

God planted the tree and caused it to bring forth fruit. God meant for it to be eaten from, eventually. There was nothing wrong with the tree in and of itself. God simply said not to eat from it. God placed what amounts to a temporary restriction on Adam and Eve, not eat of the tree.

[canuckamuck]

Yes I realize I worded that badly. What I meant was that it was not necessary for them to eat of the tree. But because they did, the law became necessary. So therefore the tree did not represent the law as the OP proposed.

[Massorite]

Sorry, I did not mean the tree itself was unnecessary. I meant the knowledge of good and evil was unnecessary. The tree or something like the tree representing free will, was essential.

But I don't believe that the tree represented free will because Adam and Eve already had free will to choose to be disobedient to the commands of God. If anything the tree of life represented "temptation". The bible uses the word "beguiled" as in "satan beguiled me" which means "to seduce". What did satan tell Eve? That if she eat of the fruit that she would become like God knowing good from evil. The tree of life was the only thing in the garden that satan could use to tempt or seduce Adam and Eve into disobeying the only command God gave them in which He was telling them not to do it. They already had freedom of choice before they talked to satan. Otherwise why would God need to tell them not to eat of the tree?

[canuckamuck]

I think it is problematic because you still are pursuing the idea of symbolism. The least complicated path is to say there was a tree there and God said don't eat the fruit. It could be as simple as that, no symbolism intended.

The tree was not the only opportunity for disobedience. Adam could have disobeyed in other ways, like not taking care of the garden for instance. He could have just sat on his duff all day. That would have been disobedient wouldn't it?

[Massorite]

I think it is problematic because you still are pursuing the idea of symbolism. The least complicated path is to say there was a tree there and God said don't eat the fruit. It could be as simple as that, no symbolism intended.

The tree was not the only opportunity for disobedience. Adam could have disobeyed in other ways, like not taking care of the garden for instance. He could have just sat on his duff all day. That would have been disobedient wouldn't it?

So then could you tell me what did Adam do when he was taking care of the garden? Did he pick up dead leaves. Or cut down dead trees. Did he clean up and bury dead animals after they died? Did he grow his own food? What was it that he did?

The word "dress" (in my bible) means in the Hebrew "to till or to work" but that is all the bible says about it. However the word dress can also mean 'to worship or do acts of worship" which also falls into the category of "work". Strong's 5647 and my BDB Hebrew Lexicon. Now my bible says "And the Lord God the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. I don't see the word commandment in this verse at all. Do you? I thought not. Which means that what ever Adam did to dress and keep the garden was not a commandment from God but something He did on his own without orders from God.

I believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and the only reason I even spoke of the possible symbolism of the tree is because you stated that the tree "represented free will" in your post #31. So please don't put words into my mouth or into the word of God because it makes you look problematic.

Remember, you said " The tree or something like the tree representing free will essential". My post was a polite way of telling I thought you were wrong because Adam already had free will the very moment God told Adam not to eat from the tree or even before that. If the tree represented anything at all.

The best I can tell from scripture is that Adam could have chosen to refuse the fruit and the eyes of both Adam and Eve would never have been opened and everything would have been different. But he didn't.

The word "eat" in verse 17 is speaking of eating food for the flesh and not food for the mind so by this we know that the tree was a literal tree with fruit that could be eaten. When Adam did eat of the tree sin became alive in his life which was not there before.

As for the garden. We all know that God is a perfect God and everything that He has created is perfect. So for this reason we know that there were no dead or dieing trees or animals in the garden because the garden was not about death but about life and if it was a perfect garden then Adam had nothing to do in the way of physical labor because nothing was dieing in the garden which means everything stayed the same as it was on the day that God made it and He made the garden perfect.

I believe that the tree was a real tree with real fruit and that if anything it represented temptation and not free will.

[canuckamuck]

I think it is problematic because you still are pursuing the idea of symbolism. The least complicated path is to say there was a tree there and God said don't eat the fruit. It could be as simple as that, no symbolism intended.

The tree was not the only opportunity for disobedience. Adam could have disobeyed in other ways, like not taking care of the garden for instance. He could have just sat on his duff all day. That would have been disobedient wouldn't it?

So then could you tell me what did Adam do when he was taking care of the garden? Did he pick up dead leaves. Or cut down dead trees. Did he clean up and bury dead animals after they died? Did he grow his own food? What was it that he did?

The word "dress" (in my bible) means in the Hebrew "to till or to work" but that is all the bible says about it. However the word dress can also mean 'to worship or do acts of worship" which also falls into the category of "work". Strong's 5647 and my BDB Hebrew Lexicon. Now my bible says "And the Lord God the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. I don't see the word commandment in this verse at all. Do you? I thought not. Which means that what ever Adam did to dress and keep the garden was not a commandment from God but something He did on his own without orders from God.

I believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and the only reason I even spoke of the possible symbolism of the tree is because you stated that the tree "represented free will" in your post #31. So please don't put words into my mouth or into the word of God because it makes you look problematic.

Remember, you said " The tree or something like the tree representing free will essential". My post was a polite way of telling I thought you were wrong because Adam already had free will the very moment God told Adam not to eat from the tree or even before that. If the tree represented anything at all.

The best I can tell from scripture is that Adam could have chosen to refuse the fruit and the eyes of both Adam and Eve would never have been opened and everything would have been different. But he didn't.

The word "eat" in verse 17 is speaking of eating food for the flesh and not food for the mind so by this we know that the tree was a literal tree with fruit that could be eaten. When Adam did eat of the tree sin became alive in his life which was not there before.

As for the garden. We all know that God is a perfect God and everything that He has created is perfect. So for this reason we know that there were no dead or dieing trees or animals in the garden because the garden was not about death but about life and if it was a perfect garden then Adam had nothing to do in the way of physical labor because nothing was dieing in the garden which means everything stayed the same as it was on the day that God made it and He made the garden perfect.

I believe that the tree was a real tree with real fruit and that if anything it represented temptation and not free will.

NKJV says "Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it". It seems this is a job description of some sort. Whether or not he could fail or rebel in this matter can only be conjecture. Somehow a talking snake got in to the garden and deceived his wife, did Adam fail here as well? I find these interesting questions. but once again more conjecture. A topic for another day perhaps.

Sticking to known facts, the symbolism argument comes from the OP, I only tried to make the symbolism more correct. You yourself said the tree represented temptation, so you too have participated in the symbolism angle.

I propose that without the tree or something like it, Adam's free will was not a reality. You say he already had free will. How can that be if he had no way to exercise his will. Without the choice (the tree), Adam had no free will. So the tree of knowledge of good and evil is all we know about Adam's freedom to choose. I find it acceptable to call the tree a symbol of free will.

By the way there were no dead animals to pick up, death hadn't been invented yet.

Edited June 21, 2009 by canuckamuck

[HAZARD]

It was a literal tree for there were many trees in the garden all of which they were free to eat of except one.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:" (Gen. 2:16).

God called this particular tree of which they were not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen. 2:17).

Even the devil knew there were many trees in the garden and that Adam and Eve could eat of any of the many trees in the garden except one particular tree, and he even said to Eve, God had said ye shall not eat of every tree in the garden? Here he infers that there a forbidden tree.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" (Gen. 3:1).

Eve said that they may eat of the fruit of the trees (plural) of the garden.

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:" (Gen. 3:2).

Eve added a few words which God did not say and which was a lie, but confirmed that the tree was a literal tree and the fruit was literal fruit because she added that God said they were not even allowed to touch it!

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." (Gen. 3:3).

We know both Adam and Eve dissobeyed God and did eat of the forbidden fruit and so God drove them out of the garden and God placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, to prevent them from eating from the tree of life and live forever in sin.

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (Gen. 3:24).

The tree of life will be made available again by God for all those that love Him,

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7).

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:2).

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (Rev. 22:14).

Haz.