WHO is "Israel"..??

[mizzdy]

QUOTE (mizzdy @ Jul 15 2009, 08:03 PM)

Israel in biblical terms doesn't mean the present country of Israel, there was no country of Israel. There was the northern and southern kingdoms, Judah where we get the term Jew from and Israel the other '10' tribes.

yes, there was a nation called Israel when the kingdom was split and divided from Judah. That is but one more additional definition but not the definition. There are several examples of jews from those supposedly "lost" 10 tribes being called a "jew" throughout the New Covenant scriptures so I have to disagree with the way 2-House adherants define jews as only from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, or Levi. It contradicts the scriptures to redefine the word "jew" or "Israel" in that way.

I wouldn't call myself a two house adherant. Israel was a kingdom under David I agree. I have studied this subject but not at length at present I am reading a book on the Jews at the time of Jesus that addresses these issues, I find it a bit biased in its approach. Yeshua went to those lost sheep first, I read it as the Jews or tribes that were scattered. I do happen to know a few 'two house' people and they do not define it as you layed out, the ones I know believe the Jews are today all the tribes now. Yet they do believe that at some time in the future the two, Judah and Israel will be brought back together. I am also very familiar with the british israelite stuff my husband grew up in Armstrongs church in the 60's and early 70's. Migrations patterns are great to follow but I am not convinced at all America is a huge tribe of Israel.

[Doowopjock]

The only meaning the Bible supplies is that Israel means to have power with man and God and prevail. It does not mean to prevail over God but to prevail with God which also gives rise to the view that "Israel" means "Prince of God." That is conjecture and is not the meaning provided to us by Scripture.

Jacob prevailed over Laban and this name change would also fortify Jacob when he would again encounter Esau.

It is really a prophecy. Israel will prevail. The most universally hated of all nations will prevail, but will do so in the power an strength of the Lord. Even in modern times Israel has continued to struggle and has prevailed against every attempt to destroy that nation. It is clear that God still considers the nation of Israel today to be the biblical Israel of old whom He promised to restore.

The nations who struggle against Israel do not realize that they are also struggling against God.

It is interesting to note along with this that while he did prevail, he was physically disabled in the process.

Somehow I have a concept in my mind of how that applies and manifests itself with the whole of Isreal, but I can't put it into words.

OK--thanx, folx.

[Guest yod]

I wouldn't call myself a two house adherant. Israel was a kingdom under David I agree. I have studied this subject but not at length at present I am reading a book on the Jews at the time of Jesus that addresses these issues, I find it a bit biased in its approach. Yeshua went to those lost sheep first, I read it as the Jews or tribes that were scattered. I do happen to know a few 'two house' people and they do not define it as you layed out, the ones I know believe the Jews are today all the tribes now. Yet they do believe that at some time in the future the two, Judah and Israel will be brought back together. I am also very familiar with the british israelite stuff my husband grew up in Armstrongs church in the 60's and early 70's. Migrations patterns are great to follow but I am not convinced at all America is a huge tribe of Israel.

good! what a relief...

I also believe that Judah and Israel will be restored but don't claim to know every detail about how or when. When it happens I will know it and that's dayenu (enough)

The 2 House stuff starts off looking quite harmless but over time, just by altering the meaning of the words "Israel" and "Jew" it becomes a subtle replacement theology from the other direction. Not all 2-Stickers see it that way but it is the ultimate result of this identity theft.

For example I once met a very bigoted man who had taken the term "Lost sheep of the house of Israel" to exclude the jews since he believed that "the house of Israel" was now the "nations/goyim".

That meant that even though Jesus was preaching to jews, the gospel wasn't meant for them. It just gets convoluted in so many ways...

Many of the people I would consider 2-House folks don't buy into the whole ball of wax, but they are supporting those who do...

[EricH]

Here is a link to an article that discusses and contrasts the 3 standard views on this topic:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html

[Doowopjock]

Here is a link to an article that discusses and contrasts the 3 standard views on this topic:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html

Thanx, Eric--bookmarked it.

[mizzdy]

Many of the people I would consider 2-House folks don't buy into the whole ball of wax, but they are supporting those who do...

The study of the two sticks is really interesting, I don't have all the understands about any of it but have tried to study it. I find the likeness of Jacob dividing his family into two camps and the bringing of Judah and Israel back together kinda prophetic, so many circumstances in the tanakh just seem to end up that way. Funny someone told me I was a two camper when I said that somewhere else and at that time I had no idea what that was and had to look it up. But I am a lot like you, when it happens I'll be in the know! but its awful interesting to talk about.

[Guest shiloh357]

Israel in biblical terms doesn't mean the present country of Israel, there was no country of Israel.

Actually in biblical terms, it does mean that. In fact there are several end-time bible prophecies that directly mention the present country of Israel, whom God is restoring.

(Isaiah 66:7-8 Jeremiah 16:14-15 Jeremiah 32:44; Ezekiel 4:3-6; Ezekiel 11:17; Ezekiel 36:24; Ezekiel 37:10-14; Ezekiel 37:15-19; Ezekiel 37:21-22; Amos 9:14-15; Micah 7:8-11)

[abbershay]

NOTE: This is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER meant in any anti-Semitic way; I have nothing but respect and compassion for the Jewish people. These are just things I wonder about is all:

WHO is Israel..?? Has the world correctly identified it as the nation at the Eastern end of the Mediterrainean or could it be that Jesus's words in Matt. 21:43 are literal..?? IF so, who brings forth the fruits of the kingdom taken away..?? If not, why are those fruits missing in what the world identifies as Israel..?? Is the Jerusalem above the mother of us all that we should pray for the peace of..?? Or is it the same as the one identified in a negative way at Rev. 11:8..?? Could the fact that "blindness in part has happened to Israel" mean that Israel doesn't even know who they are..?? Let me emphasize--I am NOT a British Israelite. I'm not even entirely sure what that means. But I do wonder about these things and have for some time.

The church is also said to be a "Spiritual race" (as opposed to a fleshly one). Does that mean that Gentiles and Jews are mixed together when born of the same Spirit..?? I "think" so, anyway. I've heard it said before that all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. That also makes sense to me since there are supposed to be eleven other tribes besides Judah. Paul said he is not a Jew who is circumcised in the flesh (I take this to mean one who is born as a Jew in his fleshly race), but one who is circumcised in the heart. All things that I wonder about--and it's just like Isaiah said, "...line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept, here a little, there a little...".

Can anybody here shed a little light on this to where I ain't so much "in the dark" on it..??

Jesus Christ is Israel.,

see this according to justin martyr:

Justin Martyr on "the true spiritual Israel" [6]

Jesus Christ ... is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ. [6. Circa AD 160] English translation from the Dialogue with Trypho xi, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, eds. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, vol. 1 (Eerdmans, repr. 1987), p. 200.

Isa. 4:2

[Guest shiloh357]

NOTE: This is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER meant in any anti-Semitic way; I have nothing but respect and compassion for the Jewish people. These are just things I wonder about is all:

WHO is Israel..?? Has the world correctly identified it as the nation at the Eastern end of the Mediterrainean or could it be that Jesus's words in Matt. 21:43 are literal..?? IF so, who brings forth the fruits of the kingdom taken away..?? If not, why are those fruits missing in what the world identifies as Israel..?? Is the Jerusalem above the mother of us all that we should pray for the peace of..?? Or is it the same as the one identified in a negative way at Rev. 11:8..?? Could the fact that "blindness in part has happened to Israel" mean that Israel doesn't even know who they are..?? Let me emphasize--I am NOT a British Israelite. I'm not even entirely sure what that means. But I do wonder about these things and have for some time.

The church is also said to be a "Spiritual race" (as opposed to a fleshly one). Does that mean that Gentiles and Jews are mixed together when born of the same Spirit..?? I "think" so, anyway. I've heard it said before that all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. That also makes sense to me since there are supposed to be eleven other tribes besides Judah. Paul said he is not a Jew who is circumcised in the flesh (I take this to mean one who is born as a Jew in his fleshly race), but one who is circumcised in the heart. All things that I wonder about--and it's just like Isaiah said, "...line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept, here a little, there a little...".

Can anybody here shed a little light on this to where I ain't so much "in the dark" on it..??

Jesus Christ is Israel.,

see this according to justin martyr:

Justin Martyr on "the true spiritual Israel" [6]

Jesus Christ ... is the new law, and the new covenant, and the expectation of those who out of every people wait for the good things of God. For the true spiritual Israel, and the descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ. [6. Circa AD 160] English translation from the Dialogue with Trypho xi, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, eds. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, vol. 1 (Eerdmans, repr. 1987), p. 200.

Isa. 4:2

[nebula]

Jesus Christ is Israel.,

This is the best answer ....

Please show me any Scriptural justification for saying that Jesus is Israel???

~~

Isa. 4:2