loosing salvation

[Guest man]

This is an excellent and well thought out thread. Thank you Rhonda Lou, for your eloquence in considering both angles of this mystery.

I think every Christian has a bit of a shudder when they see passages that tell them their salvation is not necessarily guaranteed. The Hebrews 6:6 line about falling away and being irredeemable is one. A few others have been pointed out, Particularly by Man.

And here I thought no one was listening.

My comment on this today is that if I pay attention to my spirit when I consider this mystery, I can feel from what angle comes fear, and from what angle comes the peace that passes all understanding. If Jesus is the surety of my salvation and I have not rejected Him with my mouth (for that is where we defile ourselves) or my heart, I cannot see where in the Bible my salvation is threatened. But when someone brings up these verses they make me wonder. I wonder because I know I am imperfect, I wonder because I have made bad decisions, I wonder because I can't go a day without doing something that can be defined as sin. How big is my sin, where is line of "fallen away"? All of this leads to a cycle of doubt not faith. Does the Kingdom of the Lord prosper in my doubt, or does my enemy advance against me. He who makes me doubt is an enemy of my faith. I am sad when I see lifelong Christians on their deathbed still wondering whether or not they are saved. Where is the the joy?

These verses should make one wonder. They should make you think. These verses are every bit a part of the Word of God as the ones that guarantee your salvation. They are not meant to instill doubt in the mind and heart of the believer. They are there to tell you, "Do not take your salvation for granted".

It is one thing to have the fear of the Lord which comes with belief in His divinity and righteousness. But I think doubt brings a different fear, a spirit we did not receive from the Lord. There seems to be confusion between these two.

You're right, the spirit of doubt does not come from God. Fear that comes from doubt, comes when the devil whispers in our ear. He causes us to question whether God is really listening and if we really matter in the grand scheme of things. The devil is really good at what he does, he's had a lot of practice. The trick is knowing which voice to listen too, the one in your head or the one in your heart. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between the two. The Word of God should be our refuge. No matter what question you may have, the answer is there. It's not called the Truth for nothing.

The fear of the Lord is hard to explain. I think it's knowing that He is in total control of your eternity. The good as well as the bad.

The Word states that it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God......and I believe that.

However, it is my belief that those who continue to make Christians ponder the reality of their salvation are not doing the Kingdom any benefit. There must be a point where we can walk in the freedom and the promises of the Bible. What good is the helmet of salvation if we are not allowed to try it on. We must take a step from the fear and trembling with which we entered in, and be filled with faith. Not faith in ourselves, but faith that Christ has given us an eternal gift, a bridge to the Father which He will not take away for the casual faltering of the flesh.

I believe you can choose to discard your salvation but this will not happen without an act of our will. I think you must trust God like your Father, He knows you better than you know yourself. My earthly father would endure a lot before he could be convinced I am against him, how much more my Father in Heaven.

When I talk about this, I'm not doing it to be mean spirited. There's a belief out there that states, in order to enter the kingdom, all one has to do is believe. I don't want to call anybody a liar, but that's a lie.

Yes I know, we can't work our way into the kingdom, but we can't just believe our way into it either. There has to be a combination of both. We have to adhere to the Word of God. All of it......not just bits and pieces. We can't pick through it and take out what we like and discard the rest. We have to stop letting our emotions control the way we walk. Our walk should be controlled by the Word, not by how we feel.

We have to start testing the spirits out there. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this, "It may not be 100%, but anything is better than nothing". That just floors me when I see people who are willing to settle for less than perfect when it comes to God. God doesn't want your religious attitude....He wants your obedience.

One cannot lose their salvation if they're walking in the way of the Word. But that walk is not a walk in the park. The Word tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. That to me means, not taking it for granted.

There are many truths within the pages of the bible, and if people don't know or understand those truths, that's not benefiting the kingdom either.

[pokemaughan]

Once saved always saved, and I believe that the only way you can lose salvation is by comitting the unpardonable sin.

1Ti 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,

1Ti 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,

1Ti 1:20 among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Mat 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

That is probably a whole another post though.

That's not what Scripture teaches...

Romans 11:11-24

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God

[Guest man]

But then there's this,

Matthew 7

21

[pokemaughan]

Those verses indicate that there are some who believe they are saved but are not.

Does a lukewarm 'non-religious' sinner's prayer Christian think he's saved? Uh ya, I've spoke with them myself. Most unspiritual person I've met, but what do ya know, he believes in Jesus, so he's all good, right?

[Guest man]

Those verses indicate that there are some who believe they are saved but are not.

Does a lukewarm 'non-religious' sinner's prayer Christian think he's saved? Uh ya, I've spoke with them myself. Most unspiritual person I've met, but what do ya know, he believes in Jesus, so he's all good, right?

I know what you're saying, I know people like that too. But it's not my place to say who is or who isn't right with God. Because no one really knows. No one can see within the heart of a man except for the one who created him. All we can do, if we are able, is to show them the truth.

[godrulz]

I Jn. has something to say about counterfeit, fake believers who never truly believed/converted. Hebrews, etc. talks about apostasy, a falling from truth (once believed, but no longer do so). Both scenarios are possible (unless we are robots).

[pokemaughan]

I know what you're saying, I know people like that too. But it's not my place to say who is or who isn't right with God. Because no one really knows. No one can see within the heart of a man except for the one who created him. All we can do, if we are able, is to show them the truth.

Ya definitely brother... we can't judge the hearts. I guess I just felt it necessary to clarify that there is a difference between oral confession (that passage you share) and genuine repentance. I remember the first time you shared that verse with me I was very afraid because these things weren't clarified. The way you said it made it sound that even you and I, genuine followers of Christ, could still be denied.

[Guest man]

I know what you're saying, I know people like that too. But it's not my place to say who is or who isn't right with God. Because no one really knows. No one can see within the heart of a man except for the one who created him. All we can do, if we are able, is to show them the truth.

Ya definitely brother... we can't judge the hearts. I guess I just felt it necessary to clarify that there is a difference between oral confession (that passage you share) and genuine repentance. I remember the first time you shared that verse with me I was very afraid because these things weren't clarified. The way you said it made it sound that even you and I, genuine followers of Christ, could still be denied.

You know, to be totally honest, I will never tell anyone that I'm going to heaven when I die. I don't know why, but it just bothers me. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I'm speaking of myself only, but I would feel so arrogant if I were to say something like that. It doesn't bother me that others talk about themselves, but for me..........it's hard.

I have hope and I believe that I'm walking to the best of my ability, but there are things that I struggle with. I believe I have a pretty good grasp of the Word, but there are things in my personal life that are a hindrance. I want to say that I'm 100% sure, but that would be a lie. I don't think I'll know until the day I stand before God.

Again, I'm speaking of myself only.

[pokemaughan]

You know, to be totally honest, I will never tell anyone that I'm going to heaven when I die. I don't know why, but it just bothers me. Please don't take this the wrong way, because I'm speaking of myself only, but I would feel so arrogant if I were to say something like that. It doesn't bother me that others talk about themselves, but for me..........it's hard.

I have hope and I believe that I'm walking to the best of my ability, but there are things that I struggle with. I believe I have a pretty good grasp of the Word, but there are things in my personal life that are a hindrance. I want to say that I'm 100% sure, but that would be a lie. I don't think I'll know until the day I stand before God.

Again, I'm speaking of myself only.

Completely understandable.

I guess my stance is based on the tenor of the apostles- stand firm... hold fast... the big idea always seemed to be "be confident in the hope of Jesus Christ". But at the same time humility isn't to be forgotten.

[Rhonda Lou]

This is an excellent and well thought out thread. Thank you Rhonda Lou, for your eloquence in considering both angles of this mystery.

I think every Christian has a bit of a shudder when they see passages that tell them their salvation is not necessarily guaranteed. The Hebrews 6:6 line about falling away and being irredeemable is one. A few others have been pointed out, Particularly by Man.

And here I thought no one was listening.

My comment on this today is that if I pay attention to my spirit when I consider this mystery, I can feel from what angle comes fear, and from what angle comes the peace that passes all understanding. If Jesus is the surety of my salvation and I have not rejected Him with my mouth (for that is where we defile ourselves) or my heart, I cannot see where in the Bible my salvation is threatened. But when someone brings up these verses they make me wonder. I wonder because I know I am imperfect, I wonder because I have made bad decisions, I wonder because I can't go a day without doing something that can be defined as sin. How big is my sin, where is line of "fallen away"? All of this leads to a cycle of doubt not faith. Does the Kingdom of the Lord prosper in my doubt, or does my enemy advance against me. He who makes me doubt is an enemy of my faith. I am sad when I see lifelong Christians on their deathbed still wondering whether or not they are saved. Where is the the joy?

These verses should make one wonder. They should make you think. These verses are every bit a part of the Word of God as the ones that guarantee your salvation. They are not meant to instill doubt in the mind and heart of the believer. They are there to tell you, "Do not take your salvation for granted".

It is one thing to have the fear of the Lord which comes with belief in His divinity and righteousness. But I think doubt brings a different fear, a spirit we did not receive from the Lord. There seems to be confusion between these two.

You're right, the spirit of doubt does not come from God. Fear that comes from doubt, comes when the devil whispers in our ear. He causes us to question whether God is really listening and if we really matter in the grand scheme of things. The devil is really good at what he does, he's had a lot of practice. The trick is knowing which voice to listen too, the one in your head or the one in your heart. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between the two. The Word of God should be our refuge. No matter what question you may have, the answer is there. It's not called the Truth for nothing.

The fear of the Lord is hard to explain. I think it's knowing that He is in total control of your eternity. The good as well as the bad.

The Word states that it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God......and I believe that.

However, it is my belief that those who continue to make Christians ponder the reality of their salvation are not doing the Kingdom any benefit. There must be a point where we can walk in the freedom and the promises of the Bible. What good is the helmet of salvation if we are not allowed to try it on. We must take a step from the fear and trembling with which we entered in, and be filled with faith. Not faith in ourselves, but faith that Christ has given us an eternal gift, a bridge to the Father which He will not take away for the casual faltering of the flesh.

I believe you can choose to discard your salvation but this will not happen without an act of our will. I think you must trust God like your Father, He knows you better than you know yourself. My earthly father would endure a lot before he could be convinced I am against him, how much more my Father in Heaven.

When I talk about this, I'm not doing it to be mean spirited. There's a belief out there that states, in order to enter the kingdom, all one has to do is believe. I don't want to call anybody a liar, but that's a lie.

Yes I know, we can't work our way into the kingdom, but we can't just believe our way into it either. There has to be a combination of both. We have to adhere to the Word of God. All of it......not just bits and pieces. We can't pick through it and take out what we like and discard the rest. We have to stop letting our emotions control the way we walk. Our walk should be controlled by the Word, not by how we feel.

We have to start testing the spirits out there. I can't tell you how many times I've heard this, "It may not be 100%, but anything is better than nothing". That just floors me when I see people who are willing to settle for less than perfect when it comes to God. God doesn't want your religious attitude....He wants your obedience.

One cannot lose their salvation if they're walking in the way of the Word. But that walk is not a walk in the park. The Word tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. That to me means, not taking it for granted.

There are many truths within the pages of the bible, and if people don't know or understand those truths, that's not benefiting the kingdom either.

I agree with you that just saying we believe in Jesus does not save us -- I said that, and MEANT that my whole life growing up. Yet I never turned away from my sin nature. I never submitted to Christ. I never allowed Him to work in me. In essence, I was never saved. The "offensive" part of the Gospel which is so watered down today is that we must actually allow God to CHANGE us, we must confess that we are totally dependent upon Him to do this because we cannot help ourselves, we are too weak; we must be totally humbled before our awesome God. Then we must set ourselves aside, and let HIM make the decisions and rule. Nobody wants to do this so the gospel has come down to: believe that all men sin, that we need Jesus to pay the penalty, that He did, and go on and do whatever you want because your insurance is paid up and you'll go to heaven when you die." I agree with you that something is missing there, and that many people who were told that belive they are Christians and will go to heaven and they won't -- they've taken the wide road. The sacrifice of self MUST be taken -- what God did physically, we MUST DO spiritually. He who loves his life will lose it, and He who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

I also agree that Christians are obedient to their Lord. But, I don't think it is their works of obedience which keep them saved -- we can only BE obedient when God is living through us -- and it is God in us which is the mark of our salvation. Galatians 3:2-5 says: "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain -- if indeed it was in van? Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, do He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Romans 8:9-11 says, "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is no His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Christians are those with the Spirit of God in them. That Spirit seals us for all eternity. That Spirit transforms us. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, ARE BEING transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." We do good now because we love God, and He is in us doing good. The Spirit is new, but the flesh is still weak. I know that often times that my initial reaction emotionally when things happen to me is still wrong -- in a sense, "self" never changes. That is why we DIE to self daily. And we die because we have the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit in us, transforming us. Galatians 2:20, my favorite passage in the Bible says, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." All good I now do, is God in me, it is not me but Him. 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 says, "For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us."

We are God's arms and hands, feet and legs, eyes and ears on this earth. He lives through us to love others, and as we cooperate with Him and LET Him live through us, He bears fruit. John 15:4-5 says: "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you,unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing."

We are obedient only because Christ through the Holy Spirit is in us, and He is obedient through us. As we allow Him to work through the members of our body, He accomplishes His goals. How does this work in practical terms? I mean, how do we know we have the Spirit in us and that we aren't simply trying to earn our way to heaven? I've read on this thread of several who have feared for their salvation and wonder how obedient they have to be to make it count. This is my answer to that fear: in the flesh, we will always sin. The Christian life is learned to live in the Spirit. If when you sin, you feel bad about it, repent of it (for what true repentance looks like, see 2 Corinthians 7:9-11), and allow God to change that in you, then you are probably saved. If you don't even feel bad about it, because "Christ died for my sins, forgives me, and so I can do whatever I want to, because when I die I will go to heaven", then there is cause for worry. That would not be the Holy Spirit talking -- He would never allow that attitude to be part of a true Christian. If you WANT to be saved, realize that Jesus DID die for you, and that He ROSE again to take away the power of sin, and that He wants to live inside you to change you. Believe in His death and resurrection, allow Him in as Lord, and cling to Him in total dependence upon His ability to save you starting NOW -- NOT when you get to heaven, and His Spirit will come and dwell in you as a deposit guaranteeing your salvation. After that, you will be more concerned about growing in the faith than you will be about losing your salvation in terms of heaven.

The dire warnings in the Bible are to get you to look at your heart, to ensure you actually do turn away from works of the flesh to depend upon God, they are meant to show what it looks like to be a Christian (it looks like obedience), but that obedience MUST be properly motivated -- not out of fear of hell, but out of the Holy Spirit's work in you, if that makes sense. That is why the Bible says REPENT and believe -- not simply BELIEVE.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Rhonda Lou