Why Faith VS. Science, and not Faith AND Science?

[~candice~]

so what you are saying is that the "MANY cycles of life on this earth", the Proterozoic ,precambrian, cambrian and jurassic all took place prior to God saying "let there be light"?

Am I reading that right?

God said, "Let there be light," after the Spirit of the Lord hovered over the waters, which occured after the earth was/became formless and void.

This is plainly how it is written in Scripture.

it is sort of funny you call it plainly written when you use "was/became" since there is much debate on which it is, and what it means.

Theres no debate at all on what it means gator... not to anyone who knows the meaning... it means BECAME

Yanno its too bad you cant see this is directed at saving souls and you just want to argue something unarguable

Basically what you just said, is that if you don't agree with me then you must be wrong. This is the wrong way to argue / debate a point. Debate the argument, not the person, and do so without underhanded personal comments.

There is a LOT of debate on 'hayak', and MOST scholarly academics disagree with you. As I showed you in chat, the word 'was' in Gen 1:2, which is 'hayak' in hebrew, occurs over 1000 times in Genesis alone, and is translated to 100 different words in english. Why do you supposed that BECAME is the right translation when most scholars are happy to interpret it as WAS? I think this is a case of making the bible fit the science.

Edited July 29, 2009 by ~andy~

[WolfBitn]

There is a LOT of debate on 'hayak', and MOST scholarly academics disagree with you. As I showed you in chat, the word 'was' in Gen 1:2, which is 'hayak' in hebrew, occurs over 1000 times in Genesis alone, and is translated to 100 different words in english. Why do you supposed that BECAME is the right translation when most scholars are happy to interpret it as WAS? I think this is a case of making the bible fit the science.

http://timothyministries.org/theologicaldi...80%98aher-hayah

Hayah (Hebrew: היה) denotes God's potency in the immediate future, to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into, and is part of YHVH. The phrase "Hayah-'aher-Hayah" (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה) comes from the word Hayah and is used a total of 43 places in the Old Testament, where it is usually translated as "I will be" -- as is the case for its first occurrence, in Exodus 3:12 -- or "I shall be," as is the case for its final occurrence in Zechariah 8:8.

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01961

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

(Qal)

to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

to come about, come to pass

to come into being, become

to arise, appear, come

to become

to become

to become like

to be instituted, be established

to be

to exist, be in existence

to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)

to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)

to accompany, be with

(Niphal)

to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about

to be done, be finished, be gone

http://tdwotd.blogspot.com/2009/06/hayah-aher-hayah.html

to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into,

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/app_vii.html

The following

references illustrate how this usage is found, in every case the verb

being in the Niphal.

Deut.4.32: "whether there has been (done) such a great thing..."

Jud. 19.30; "There was no such thing (done) nor seen..."

Jud.20.3: "How was there (done) this wickedness?"

I Sam. 25.6: "Peace be upon..."

I Ki. 1.27: "Has this thing been done by my lord the king?"

I Ki.12.24: "This thing from me has been", ie., has been done.

Neh. 6.8: "There are no such things (done) as thou sayest".

Prov.13.19: "The desire that has been (satisfied) is sweet to my

soul".

Isa.5.5: "It shall be (given over) to being consumed".

Jer.48.19; "Ask him that fleeth and her that escapeth. and say,

What is (done)?"

Ezek.21.12: "Cry and howl, son of man, for it shall be (done)

upon my people".

Ezek. 39.8: "Behold.... it is (done), saith the Lord."

Micah 2.4: "A doleful lament has been (made)".

http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/1961.htm

to exist, i.e. Be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) -- beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen

Most of these are Hebrew sites... i dont think theres a real quesiton as to the meaning to most hebrews

[~candice~]

There is a LOT of debate on 'hayak', and MOST scholarly academics disagree with you. As I showed you in chat, the word 'was' in Gen 1:2, which is 'hayak' in hebrew, occurs over 1000 times in Genesis alone, and is translated to 100 different words in english. Why do you supposed that BECAME is the right translation when most scholars are happy to interpret it as WAS? I think this is a case of making the bible fit the science.

http://timothyministries.org/theologicaldi...80%98aher-hayah

Hayah (Hebrew: היה) denotes God's potency in the immediate future, to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into, and is part of YHVH. The phrase "Hayah-'aher-Hayah" (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה) comes from the word Hayah and is used a total of 43 places in the Old Testament, where it is usually translated as "I will be" -- as is the case for its first occurrence, in Exodus 3:12 -- or "I shall be," as is the case for its final occurrence in Zechariah 8:8.

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01961

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

(Qal)

to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

to come about, come to pass

to come into being, become

to arise, appear, come

to become

to become

to become like

to be instituted, be established

to be

to exist, be in existence

to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)

to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)

to accompany, be with

(Niphal)

to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about

to be done, be finished, be gone

http://tdwotd.blogspot.com/2009/06/hayah-aher-hayah.html

to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into,

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/app_vii.html

The following

references illustrate how this usage is found, in every case the verb

being in the Niphal.

Deut.4.32: "whether there has been (done) such a great thing..."

Jud. 19.30; "There was no such thing (done) nor seen..."

Jud.20.3: "How was there (done) this wickedness?"

I Sam. 25.6: "Peace be upon..."

I Ki. 1.27: "Has this thing been done by my lord the king?"

I Ki.12.24: "This thing from me has been", ie., has been done.

Neh. 6.8: "There are no such things (done) as thou sayest".

Prov.13.19: "The desire that has been (satisfied) is sweet to my

soul".

Isa.5.5: "It shall be (given over) to being consumed".

Jer.48.19; "Ask him that fleeth and her that escapeth. and say,

What is (done)?"

Ezek.21.12: "Cry and howl, son of man, for it shall be (done)

upon my people".

Ezek. 39.8: "Behold.... it is (done), saith the Lord."

Micah 2.4: "A doleful lament has been (made)".

http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/1961.htm

to exist, i.e. Be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) -- beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen

Most of these are Hebrew sites... i dont think theres a real quesiton as to the meaning to most hebrews

In each and every one of these examples, there is also an explanation meaning the same as 'was' and not 'become'. Be honest and admit that there is not one universally accepted meaning of 'hayah' for Gen 1:2, and that most hebrew scholars interpret it, in context, to mean 'was'. Simply dumping a list of websites on a page is not enough for me...

[WolfBitn]

There is a LOT of debate on 'hayak', and MOST scholarly academics disagree with you. As I showed you in chat, the word 'was' in Gen 1:2, which is 'hayak' in hebrew, occurs over 1000 times in Genesis alone, and is translated to 100 different words in english. Why do you supposed that BECAME is the right translation when most scholars are happy to interpret it as WAS? I think this is a case of making the bible fit the science.

http://timothyministries.org/theologicaldi...80%98aher-hayah

Hayah (Hebrew: היה) denotes God's potency in the immediate future, to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into, and is part of YHVH. The phrase "Hayah-'aher-Hayah" (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה) comes from the word Hayah and is used a total of 43 places in the Old Testament, where it is usually translated as "I will be" -- as is the case for its first occurrence, in Exodus 3:12 -- or "I shall be," as is the case for its final occurrence in Zechariah 8:8.

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=01961

to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

(Qal)

to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

to come about, come to pass

to come into being, become

to arise, appear, come

to become

to become

to become like

to be instituted, be established

to be

to exist, be in existence

to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)

to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)

to accompany, be with

(Niphal)

to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about

to be done, be finished, be gone

http://tdwotd.blogspot.com/2009/06/hayah-aher-hayah.html

to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into,

http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/app_vii.html

The following

references illustrate how this usage is found, in every case the verb

being in the Niphal.

Deut.4.32: "whether there has been (done) such a great thing..."

Jud. 19.30; "There was no such thing (done) nor seen..."

Jud.20.3: "How was there (done) this wickedness?"

I Sam. 25.6: "Peace be upon..."

I Ki. 1.27: "Has this thing been done by my lord the king?"

I Ki.12.24: "This thing from me has been", ie., has been done.

Neh. 6.8: "There are no such things (done) as thou sayest".

Prov.13.19: "The desire that has been (satisfied) is sweet to my

soul".

Isa.5.5: "It shall be (given over) to being consumed".

Jer.48.19; "Ask him that fleeth and her that escapeth. and say,

What is (done)?"

Ezek.21.12: "Cry and howl, son of man, for it shall be (done)

upon my people".

Ezek. 39.8: "Behold.... it is (done), saith the Lord."

Micah 2.4: "A doleful lament has been (made)".

http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/1961.htm

to exist, i.e. Be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) -- beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen

Most of these are Hebrew sites... i dont think theres a real quesiton as to the meaning to most hebrews

In each and every one of these examples, there is also an explanation meaning the same as 'was' and not 'become'. Be honest and admit that there is not one universally accepted meaning of 'hayah' for Gen 1:2, and that most hebrew scholars interpret it, in context, to mean 'was'. Simply dumping a list of websites on a page is not enough for me...

Thats not just dumping a bunch of websites on you andy lol... my good aussie friend that is a hebrew lexicon, a strongs lexicon, 2 hebrew websites explaining the word, and one or 2 more thrown in for good measure... Also even in WAS it is used in the same way, with the same understanding as 'became' ...for instance it WAS laid waste, it WAS emptied of life... THIS is the correct usage. If youd like to find a hebrew source however, disputing this, i sure would look at it and not just brush it off

[~candice~]

Re-read each of those quotes you gave us carefully. They don't all agree with you. They present many english words that can be used in place of hayah, not all meaning 'become', some, for example 'to be', are more in support of 'was'. Even your own sources indicate that there is uncertainty over the issue.

[WolfBitn]

Birds started evolving from theropods long before the extinction event 65 million years ago you state is the beginning point for Genesis 1.

Youre not paying very close attention Gator... we are discussing the birds of THIS age, the one which gave us Adam

Water vapor "surrounded the atmosphere"? That not only is not supported by science but it defies physics. Give me one scientific evidence for this water vapor canopy magically suspended above the atmosphere.

Again you missed somewhere in your reading, where ive stated 3 times now that VENUS NOW has such a vapor surrounding ITS atmosphere... THIS moment it surrounds the venesian atmosphere, while youre reading this saying its impossible and it doesnt or cant exist

Amazing... this is CERTAINLY consistant with the biblical account that GOD brought forth life and began it in the waters... this would be an early cycle of life BEFORE the destruction that led to this present age

Except that this predates your proposed creation event by over 500 million years. Come on man stick to a consistent timeline; your interpretation of Genesis starts 65 million years ago, start there and move forward.

i bolded the part you read over and missed AGAIN lol

So we see then that AFTER the fish and birds were brought forth form the WATERS, it is time for land creatures to appear... which AGAIN is consistant with scripture AND geology

Your chronology is all wrong, land animals evolved from fish 365 million years ago and birds don't start evolving from them until 150 million years ago. This is about as inconsistent with paleontology as you can get but don't worry, I'm sure you can once again ignore this obvious contradiction and "POOF!" this 200+ million years will vanish as well.

So where in the bible does it say land animals evolved from fish, and where is your geological or palentological evidence of this? No opinion ALONE please, post sources WITH your explanation please;)

The odd thing is the chromosomes

our chromosomes do indeed show us to be differant, as primates have 48 in 24 pairs chromosomes and we have 46 in 23 pairs...

HOW did this happen?

The second chromosome is FUSED with another, in a way NOT found to naturally occur anywhere else in the animal world. As one atheist has shown in another thread this chromosome also just happens to be one involving intelligence.

Oh good grief, you are seriously just making this up as you go along aren't you? There's nothing unique at all about the process of chromosome fusion that would limit it to human beings and the findings suggesting that this chromosome is related to intelligence is extremely preliminary, which I noted previously.

Odd how neither you nor 2-3 atheists debating this on another thread cant produce A SINGLE example of this happening natuarally in ANY other animal on earth

Also evolution presupposes that life evolves from the simplest to the most complex... YET HERE in the case of humanity we seem to have a miracle taking place on the chromosomal level where our chromosomes actually take a step TOWARD THE MORE SIMPLISTIC in number

Evolution explains how life adapts to its environment which usually, but not always, leads to more complexity as environments change. That being said the fusing of two chromosomes into one is not a "step toward the more simplistic" in anything other than the imagination of people who don't understand that chromosomes aren't information, they're just filing cabinets for genes. In this case all the genetic is still there it's just fused into a single chromosome now.

Well of course it is a simplification... its putting the same amount of info in less chromosomes... if we do this with ALL the chromosomes we have a single chromosomed organism... a much simpler form, just liek a single CELLED organism

[WolfBitn]

*edit (WolfBitn)

Edited July 29, 2009 by WolfBitn

[canuckamuck]

Well let's have a look at the testing portion of this theory.

[WolfBitn]

Well let's have a look at the testing portion of this theory.

Ok lets talk about the testing and lay some foundation

1. We can do tests for reliability of source

2. We can make prediction and test the prediction

3. Some tests are by nature time sensitive. For instance, IF we are going to test a theory concerning the effects of the tail of haleys comet on levels of trace gasses in the atmosphere, we MUST design the test and then wait for the next opportunity to actually test it. Now though we can do SEVERAL tests up front, we must also understand that there ARE a few tests, not many, that are time sensitive. BUT the good news is they are time sensitive in a very not too distant future.

Now let me submit too that the evidence presented thus far is a test in itself...

We have TESTED the hebrew wording against REAL scientific finding, and thus far our theory still holds and is not falsified... i just want to point this out

Ok lets look at prediction... let me just ask, what sort of prediction should we make concerning this theory?

Ive got several ideas but i want to open it up for everyone.

1) we could look for PAST predictions and how those experiments fared

The bible itself is the source for our theory on creation and the BANG of the big bang, so i think its reasonable to test the bible for its reliability as a source and its precise accuracy in OTHER areas...

The bible itself makes predictions so lets take a look at a few

3Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

4I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

26And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

What i see here are EIGHT (8) predictions

5 past - 3 future. We can test this source by its precise accuracy on the 5 already tested predictions.

1) First of all its predicted that the Medes and the Persians would band together into a great kingdom. It was predicted that they would puch out and increase their kingdom and conquor, no one could stop them

This was prophecied when Babylon was considered unconquorable, and yet we see this prediction passed the test because thats EXACTLY what happened

2) its predicted that Greece would then emerge as the world power, and this is EXACTLY what heppened, so this prediction passed the test

3) its predicted that Alexander would rise to GREAT prominance, and thats again exactly what happened, so this prediction too passed the test

4) its predicted that Alexanders kingdom would be broken up into 4 parts, and that too is EXACTLY what happened, so this prediction passed the test

5) its predicted the 4th kingdom would destroy the Holy people and this is EXACTLY what happened when titus took Jerusalem and the temple... so this one passed the test too

Now... consider the tests i showed earlier dealing with string theory... and these were simply periphrial tests like the one we are now examining... EVERY one failed... EVERY ONE...

Which is PART of the reason its laughed at as a theory by MANY scientists

Thus far we have examined FIVE predictions and ALL FIVE passed the testing

Christianity, our bible should at least now be respected and get your attention as a VERY REAL possibility when it comes to reliability and accuracy and consistancy in testing... Its earning its keep

Lets look for more testing shall we

[~candice~]

It's so hard to debate with you when you won't address our points....