Christianity is a sect of the Jews

[Shaliach]

After all, in the sight of God all believers in Christ Jesus are Jews, and our shared root is in Abraham.

No, all believers are the seed of Abraham, but not all believers in Jesus are Jews. I am sorry, but that is not a biblical statement.

Interesting comment.

Please explain where the division between the "seed of Abraham" and "Jews" took place, as all believers are "in Christ", the Lion of Judea and of the seed of David of the tribe of Judea, and we, being adoped into Christ place all believers in Jesus in the house of Judea, from whence comes the term "Jew".

Edited July 29, 2009 by Shaliach

[WolfBitn]

After all, in the sight of God all believers in Christ Jesus are Jews, and our shared root is in Abraham.

No, all believers are the seed of Abraham, but not all believers in Jesus are Jews. I am sorry, but that is not a biblical statement.

Interesting comment.

Please explain where the division between the "seed of Abraham" and "Jews" took place, as all believers are "in Christ", the Lion of Judea and of the seed of David of the tribe of Judea, and we, being adoped into Christ place all believers in Jesus in the house of Judea, from whence comes the term "Jew".

interesting i agree

Romans 2:28

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

[Shaliach]

Seriously want to know.... Who are the" followers of the way", what did they do differently than what we do at the baptist church I attend now?

What changed for the followers of the way after the first three centuries?

I visited a Messianic web-site awhile back. What struck me most was that this group really didn't think very highly of Pauls teachings. Do all Messianic's feel this way? Are there any other NT writings they disagree with??

You mention pagan rites and ordinances, christmas and easter are obvious, what other rites and ordinances do you refer too?

Not trying to start a fight, I just want some clarity. What would you say a Christian would have to do to be part of God's family?

Not a problem.

I think you will find a number of excellent references and resources at HaShaliach, please feel free to visit.

But first, here are three books that are outstanding, where the roots and heritage of the Christian faith are very well documented and explained from three different perspectives.

Our Father Abraham, Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith by Marvin R. Wilson, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1989, Grand Rapids, Michigan and Center for Jedaic-Christian Studies, Dayton, Ohio

Jewish Roots, A Foundation of Biblical Theology by Dan Juster, 1995, Destiny Image Publishers, Inc. P.O. Box 310, Shippensburg, PA 17257

The Church and the Jews, The Biblical Relationship by Dan Gruber, 1997, Serenity Books, P.O. Box 3595, Hagerstown, MD 21742.

These volumes also contain an excellent array of references.

I also highly recommend The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus. I think it might be available to research on-line. Sorry, haven’t checked that out.

I hope this assists you in answering some of your questions. Meanwhile, I have a couple of tasks needing attending to. I will get back with you with a partial list of the divergences from the worship services and methods practiced during the first four centuries, plus some additional information that might be of interest.

Added note:

All three authors are Messianic Jews.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Shaliach

[Guest shiloh357]

After all, in the sight of God all believers in Christ Jesus are Jews, and our shared root is in Abraham.

No, all believers are the seed of Abraham, but not all believers in Jesus are Jews. I am sorry, but that is not a biblical statement.

Interesting comment.

Please explain where the division between the "seed of Abraham" and "Jews" took place, as all believers are "in Christ", the Lion of Judea and of the seed of David of the tribe of Judea, and we, being adoped into Christ place all believers in Jesus in the house of Judea, from whence comes the term "Jew".

Christians are never referred to in the Bible as "Jews." Secondly, we are in Christ, but that is juxtaposed with being taken out of Adam. It is an objective coventantal and spiritual position. It has nothing to do with Jesus' physical lineage. The Bible does not anywhere indicate that Chrisitans are part of the tribe of Judah.

In the Scriptures, the tribes of Israel are always the physical descendents of Jacob. Terms like "Jacob," "Israel," "Judah" are never spiritualized and applied to Christians. The biblical support for what you are asserting simply does not exist.

With respect, you are misusing concepts and taking liberties with them that go beyond the pale of biblical, New Testament Christianity.

[Guest shiloh357]

After all, in the sight of God all believers in Christ Jesus are Jews, and our shared root is in Abraham.

No, all believers are the seed of Abraham, but not all believers in Jesus are Jews. I am sorry, but that is not a biblical statement.

Interesting comment.

Please explain where the division between the "seed of Abraham" and "Jews" took place, as all believers are "in Christ", the Lion of Judea and of the seed of David of the tribe of Judea, and we, being adoped into Christ place all believers in Jesus in the house of Judea, from whence comes the term "Jew".

interesting i agree

Romans 2:28

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

The passage in Galations pertains to an argument between two Jews, Peter and Paul. Paul is not including the Galatians as "Jews."

As for the passage in 1 Corinthians, all Paul is saying that Jew and Gentile are all one in the Body of Christ irrespective of social status.

Romans 2:28 is not a case of Paul telling the Romans they are Jews. Paul is talking to Jews. Romans 1 and 2 are about Paul addressing the like spiritual lostness in both Jews and Gentiles. Paul is demonstrating that both Jew and Gentile are equally shut up in sin before God. In Chapter 1 Paul addresses the Gentiles and in chapter 2, he is addressing the Jews and his comments in v. 28 are directed at Jews pertaining to what it means to be a true Jew. Paul is simply telling Jews that Jewishness is not found resting and boasting in the law and in pedigree but is found when one's life is a praise unto the Lord.

[Shaliach]

Christians are never referred to in the Bible as "Jews." Secondly, we are in Christ, but that is juxtaposed with being taken out of Adam. It is an objective coventantal and spiritual position. It has nothing to do with Jesus' physical lineage. The Bible does not anywhere indicate that Chrisitans are part of the tribe of Judah.

In the Scriptures, the tribes of Israel are always the physical descendents of Jacob. Terms like "Jacob," "Israel," "Judah" are never spiritualized and applied to Christians. The biblical support for what you are asserting simply does not exist.

With respect, you are misusing concepts and taking liberties with them that go beyond the pale of biblical, New Testament Christianity.

You are right on every point.

May your studies be fruitful.

[WolfBitn]

After all, in the sight of God all believers in Christ Jesus are Jews, and our shared root is in Abraham.

No, all believers are the seed of Abraham, but not all believers in Jesus are Jews. I am sorry, but that is not a biblical statement.

Interesting comment.

Please explain where the division between the "seed of Abraham" and "Jews" took place, as all believers are "in Christ", the Lion of Judea and of the seed of David of the tribe of Judea, and we, being adoped into Christ place all believers in Jesus in the house of Judea, from whence comes the term "Jew".

Christians are never referred to in the Bible as "Jews." Secondly, we are in Christ, but that is juxtaposed with being taken out of Adam. It is an objective coventantal and spiritual position. It has nothing to do with Jesus' physical lineage. The Bible does not anywhere indicate that Chrisitans are part of the tribe of Judah.

In the Scriptures, the tribes of Israel are always the physical descendents of Jacob. Terms like "Jacob," "Israel," "Judah" are never spiritualized and applied to Christians. The biblical support for what you are asserting simply does not exist. With respect, you are misusing concepts and taking liberties with them that go beyond the pale of biblical, New Testament Christianity.

Hi Shiloh

With respect i have to disagree with the bolded.

Ruth was a moabite and yet she became not only a Jew through marriage and desire to serve the God of Israel, she is also an ancestor of of Christ. The same can be said of Rahab the harlot from Jericho.

Israel was instructed by God to take in the stranger and HIS DESIRE was that EVERYONE be a part of Israel, His chosen. On the exodus MANY egyptians and africans joined themselves to the congregation and left egypt.

Also we know that God tells us that a jew is NOT a jew physically... but a true jew is one of the heart... whos HEART is circumcised.

Jesus also asked WHO ARE my mother and brethren and sisters? Those who do the will of the Father, and Jesus was a Jew

[Guest shiloh357]

Ruth was a moabite and yet she became not only a Jew through marriage and desire to serve the God of Israel, she is also an ancestor of of Christ. The same can be said of Rahab the harlot from Jericho.

Yes, but she did not become a spritual Jew. Ruth joined physical Israel. The same can be said for Rahab. Secondly, the Bible does not call them Jewish. Gentiles remain Gentiles. It is not a sin to be a Gentile.

The fact remains that Israel and Jew are never spiritualized. Whenever God refers to Israel, it is the nation of Israel, the twelve tribes.

Israel was instructed by God to take in the stranger and HIS DESIRE was that EVERYONE be a part of Israel, His chosen. On the exodus MANY egyptians and africans joined themselves to the congregation and left egypt.

Again, that pertains to physical Israel. The NT does not draw upon that as a type of Christians becoming Jews.

Also we know that God tells us that a jew is NOT a jew physically... but a true jew is one of the heart... whos HEART is circumcised.

Yes, but Paul was telling that to Jews. Secondly, having a circumcised heart has nothing to do with salvation. It is an OT concept originally commanded to Israel in Deut 10:16. Paul was explaining what it means to be a Jew. His point was that Jews who are putting their faith in circumcision and the law have missed the point about what it means to be Jewish.

Paul was not claiming that Gentiles Christians are "Jews."

Jesus also asked WHO ARE my mother and brethren and sisters? Those who do the will of the Father, and Jesus was a Jew

Yeah, but you are violating the context in which that question appears.

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him,

[nebula]

Ruth was a moabite and yet she became not only a Jew through marriage and desire to serve the God of Israel, she is also an ancestor of of Christ. The same can be said of Rahab the harlot from Jericho.

Would you not say they became converts to Judaism.

[WolfBitn]

Ruth was a moabite and yet she became not only a Jew through marriage and desire to serve the God of Israel, she is also an ancestor of of Christ. The same can be said of Rahab the harlot from Jericho.

Would you not say they became converts to Judaism.

Becoming a convert to Judaism was supposed to be the only way one was joined to the congregation of Israel.

Heres something to ponder... where did Christ or ANY apostle tell us that Christ created a new religion?

I submit He created nothing new, but lived it perfectly in order to become both our sacrifice and our example. He never told anyone to establish a new religion.. as a matter of fact the apostles CONTINUED in judaism. Teaching Christ and the resurrection was ONLY teaching the fulfillment of Hebrew prophecy, so they werent even adding anything new