Christianity is a sect of the Jews

[Guest yod]

I visited a Messianic web-site awhile back. What struck me most was that this group really didn't think very highly of Pauls teachings. Do all Messianic's feel this way? Are there any other NT writings they disagree with??

Those are not messianic jews. They are most likely something called "Ephramites" or "2 House" which is 99.9999% gentiles and usually quite legalistic. If you see the term "hebrew roots teaching" then at least half the time they are not associated with mainstream messianic teaching. They are enamored with reinterpreting jewish heritage and tradition

You mention pagan rites and ordinances, christmas and easter are obvious, what other rites and ordinances do you refer too?

Almost everything that is "christian" tradition comes from a post-biblical greco-european religious institution that calls itself "the church"

Nothing necessarily wrong with tradition but it's not to be confused with biblical authority. There are a LOT of things that are probably good traditions, but irrelevant for the modern jewish believer.

[Guest yod]

that would have to be a translation error because "judaism" didn't begin until 90 AD at Yavneh

OK, so what was the religion of the Jews called before the creation of "Judaism"?

faith

[nebula]

But Shiloh, the NT talks about "converts to Judaism" -

And they were talking about this during the time before the destruction of the Temple.

What I am saying is that the religion of Judaism as we know it did not exist prior to the destruction of the Temple. Paul refers to the relgion of the Jews in at least two places in the NT, but he is not referring to the same relgion. The relgion of the OT was centered around the Temple and the sacrifices. Judaism as we know it has no frame of reference for many biblical concepts such as substitutionary sacrifice that Israelites in pre 70 AD Israel would have been familiar with.

I know that! And you know that I know that!

But I do believe the OP was referring to the verse(s?) in Acts where the early believers were considered a "sect" of [whatever they called the religion of the Jews back then].

[Shaliach]

OK, so what was the religion of the Jews called before the creation of "Judaism"?

There seems to be some confusion over what Judaism is and when it originated. Hope this helps:

Language Dictionary

Ju•da•ism n.

1. The monotheistic religion of the Jews, tracing its origins to Abraham and having its spiritual and ethical principles embodied chiefly in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Talmud.

2. Conformity to the traditional ceremonies and rites of the Jewish religion.

3. The cultural, religious, and social practices and beliefs of the Jews.

4. The Jews considered as a people or community.

The American Heritage

Edited July 29, 2009 by Shaliach

[Shaliach]

An answer to your question: I don't know. However, generally in literature they historically refer to themselves as the "People of the Covenant", the “People of God” or the “Chosen Ones”.

Added comment: Of course the first recorded time where the Hebrew people were referred to as Jews was in 2 Kings 16:6. If that means anything.

Perhaps their "religion" did not have a "name", like God, it just is.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Shaliach

[Guest shiloh357]

There seems to be some confusion over what Judaism is and when it originated.

No, not really. Judaism began under Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zaakkai at his academy in Yavneh c. 72 AD

The Mishnah (Oral Law), however, was around since the time of Moses and used by Jesus in His discourse on the mountain.

The Oral Law was not around at the time of Moses and was a later invention.

The required observance of the Sabbath was established prior to the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai.

Where exactly? Do you believe that the Sabbath is "required" for believers today?

[Shaliach]

There seems to be some confusion over what Judaism is and when it originated.

No, not really. Judaism began under Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zaakkai at his academy in Yavneh c. 72 AD

The Mishnah (Oral Law), however, was around since the time of Moses and used by Jesus in His discourse on the mountain.

The Oral Law was not around at the time of Moses and was a later invention.

The required observance of the Sabbath was established prior to the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai.

Where exactly? Do you believe that the Sabbath is "required" for believers today?

Mercy! So many absolute statements. Where in the world did this stuff come from? Not historical documents.

Please see Rabbinic Judaism, which was a development (offshoot) of Judaism of the second to sixth centuries CE. Yochanan ben Zakai did NOT originate Judaism.

The Oral Law did, in fact originate with Moses, or so Jewish history and religious writings uniformly attest to. Also see, Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, 1991, William Morrow and Company, Inc., New York.

Finally, to your question: "Do you believe that the Sabbath is "required" for believers today?" My answer is a question: What does the scriptures say?" Just as important: What do the people who changed the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day say? See Confessions

Edited July 30, 2009 by Shaliach

[Shaliach]

My last note on the subject:

shiloh357

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, In rather a scornful tone, “It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.”

“The question is”, said Alice, “Whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is”, said Humpty Dumpty, “Which is to be the master - that’s all.”

Quoted from, Through The Looking-glass, by Lewis Carroll

When culturally agreed upon definitions of words are rejected (Reference post #49 & 51, this thread), there remains no rational foundation for engaging in any discussion.

When scripture is used to demonstrate an historical fact, (Oral Law, Numbers 15:32-36) and it is rejected because it does not fit some doctrine, then scripture has no value in a religious discussion. Finally, when established biblical scholars are referenced concerning the same subject(s), and summarily rejected without consideration (rejected on opinion only), then calling upon established authorities is of no value.

It is then left to who can out-last the other(s) in a right/wrong game, and those games hold no value for me.

I therefore quit the field and publicly declare shiloh357 the winner.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Shaliach

[Guest]

Amen

Wonderful (Jesus Filled) Post