Death in the Garden

[~candice~]

Well, this is an apologetics question I think, but I wanted to ask my brothers and sisters first before I put it before the non believers.

God created the animals of the ocean and birds of the air on the fifth day, BEFORE He created man.

Gen 1:19-26 (NIV)

19 And there was evening, and there was morning

Edited July 28, 2009 by ~andy~

[canuckamuck]

I believe the Bible says God gave every green thing for the animals to eat, so that implies that in the pre-fallen state, animals where indeed herbivores.

Gen 1: 29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

30 "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.

31

Edited July 29, 2009 by canuckamuck

[tah]

I believe the death referred to was not physical death but separation from God...

spiritual death...they died when they ate they just did not know it yet...

Jesus is the one who died for us to rekindle that "eternal flame" in our hearts..

That death is specific to humans ....

Man is created in the image of God.. not animals ...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[~candice~]

I believe the Bible says God gave every green thing for the animals to eat, so that implies that in the pre-fallen state, animals where indeed herbivores.

Gen 1: 29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

30 "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.

31

[EricH]

While the scriptures make it clear that death came to humanity because of the fall, it makes no such statement regarding animal life. We simply do not know

[WolfBitn]

I believe an interesting aspect to this quesiton is found in the fact that whether plant or animal, its "seed was in its self"... things could procreate

If everything 'repoduced' and was fruitful, how long before there wasnt room for another blade of grass? Within a couple seasons the world would be choking itself with life...

Why the need to reproduce if things were created to never actually die, and what happens when this planet is so full theres no more room for a mouse to give birth?

[Guest shiloh357]

What did the animals eat? For example, the whales in the ocean, did they not eat plankton during this time? Animals that are carnivores, did they not kill in order to eat meat? Birds who live on insects, did they not eat insects? Doesn't this all require death? I am confused.

Either.... the animals were all herbivores, or, animal death occured before human death and it is human death only referred to in Romans 5, or, such a short period of time passed that the animals didn't even have a chance to eat.

Well the Bible sesms to indicate that both man and beast were herbivorous prior to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 1:29-30).

The argument put forth by those who reject the notion that death has its origins in the fall of man is that the vegitation such as fruits, vegitables, and other plants must die in order to survive. This is seen as a refutation to the "death entered the word by sin" position.

A possible answer to that argument is that the Bible does not categorize vegitiation as "alive" in the same terms as it does man and beast. Plants have biological life to be sure, but they do not possess what the Bible calls a "nefesh" or soul. The Bible appears to define death as occurring when the soul has departed the body. The major difference between man and animals is that man has a spirit, which the Bible denotes separately from the soul. In biblical terms, the soul is the seat of your will and emotions/intelligence. Your spirit is the part of you that is recreated at the moment of salvation.

In any event, we note that Noah while commanded to bring pairs of all living things (that breathed air on land) into the ark, he did not have save the vegitiation. He did not have to round up seeds for fruit trees and vegitables, or trees or whatever.

In addition, there is passage in Romans were Paul seems to indicate that the fall of man did affect the whole of creation:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. (Romans 8:19-22)

This world is in state of decay. Immediately after the fall of man, the earth began producing "thorns and thistles" weeds. It suddenly had to be made to produce for man. The very first recorded death was that of a animal killed to make skins for Adam and Eve and we also see that sacrifices of animals were being made in the story of Cain and Abel. It appears though that the entire creation is in bondage to corruption as a direct result of Adam's sin in the Garden. This would seem to account for the violent predators we see in the animal kingdom.

I would also note that according to the Bible, the present cycle of death we see in the world today will end when God eradicates sin from the earth entirely. Death was not hardwired into the creation before sin and will no longer be present in the world AFTER sin.

[ellarose]

You may find this site interesting.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articl...view&ID=710

[~candice~]

You may find this site interesting.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articl...view&ID=710

Ella, do you have a comment on that link? I think that, in terms of YEC discussions on animal death pre fall, that site does not make a very strong argument (i have read stronger YEC no-animal-death-pre-fall arguments).

[nebula]

Well the Bible sesms to indicate that both man and beast were herbivorous prior to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 1:29-30).

Shiloh -

When would you say that certain animals became carnivorous?

(Which does involve an anatomical, physiological, and behavioral change.)