Apostasy

[Guest AllHeart]

Interesting subject. I think the key lies in Jesus teaching. He said, very clearly, "Unless you love me more than your own life you are not fit to be my disciple", likewise "Take up your cross daily and die to self". There is ONLY one criteria to be a disciple of Jesus, 100% total laying down your own life/needs/wants and be obedient to all He asks of you. You cannot die a little. Many you see in churches today are full of those who might have given nearly everything, or 50% etc. People came up to Jesus asking if they could follow, one said he needed to go bury his parent first, another Jesus said he needed to sell everything.....Jesus could see that one thing in their heart that was more important than him.....they went away sad because they knew they could not let go.

The heart is very decietful, and our churches are filled today with thousands of people who are NOT really prepared to give up everything. In their hearts their kids/homes/jobs/comftable lifestyles are actually more important. These people would have been sent away by Jesus but because of todays comfortable gospel they remain filling our churches and baring the name "Christian". You can tell these people by how they react if they feel like they are going to lose their homes/jobs etc. Christianity to them is actually all about them and not about serving their Lord. Its a self centred christianity not a God centred one. Many have come to God, not because they were on their knees in front of a Holy God in sheer repentance after understanding their arrogance in thinking their way of living life was important and their things in life were important instead, they come to God because they want to go to heaven and not hell.....but it is still all about what they can get out of it. This is one of the biggest, deepest deceptions I have ever seen.

God warns us about this deception with Judas. On the outside you could not tell he was not 100% for Jesus. Even at the last supper and Jesus said one would betray him no one looked to Judas and thought "oh, yes, its bound to be him!" He spoke like the rest, ate, drank, slept like the rest, he looked like he had "given up his old life to follow Jesus" and he stayed with him for years going wherever Jesus went. The parable of the wheat and tares speaks volumns, the roots are so intertwined you could not just pull out the tares. Imagine if Jesus said "sorry guys, I have had to let Judas go, he is not one of us"....do you think they would have understood how deep the deception was? Only Jesus could see Judas heart and it wasnt circumcised.

God sees those with a circumcised heart, those that truly have given EVERYTHING in their heart over to Him. In the last days there will a seperation from the sheep and the goats within His body. And His real church, full of those who have really laid it all down because of who He is and not what they can get from Him will arise. You will see the Church as He purifies and makes it spotless before His return because it will be full of those who are passionate about His holiness, passionate about serving others without selfish motives or position seeking. Some may have started off with 100% commitment but have since then took back their life from Jesus.....He said DAILY lay down yoyr life and die to self....DAILY its 100% or nothing.

This is why the church in Acts is so different from anything we see today. It truly was full of Christians and this I believe lies the heart of why "many in the last days will fall away".

[exrockstar]

This can be seen in various ways starting with the infiltration of pro-evolutionary views and more widespread acceptance of homosexuality as compatible with Christianity.

i didn't know evolution teachings made it's way into the church. is this a huge movement? what religion does this?

[Guest shiloh357]

This can be seen in various ways starting with the infiltration of pro-evolutionary views and more widespread acceptance of homosexuality as compatible with Christianity.

i didn't know evolution teachings made it's way into the church. is this a huge movement? what religion does this?

Yeah, it's called "Theistic Evolution" and is an attempt to make Evolution compatible with the Bible and Christianity. It is not a denominational thing, but affects the whole church.

[Smalcald]

ordaining women and divorced men?? how could they???

Sure it is so accepted today that we don't think twice about it. Yet 50 years ago it did not happen, ever. We see the influence of secular society on the Church in these areas.

i guess the sarcasm of my statement did not quite come across in my written words.

these churches may not agree with your interpretation of certain passages of Scripture, but that doesn't mean they are straying from the Word.

I agree. Also we could get really sidetracked debating them, which was not the point of this thread.

I guess we should back up a little because we are all talking about a "falling away" yet I am not sure we have a definition of what that really means?

Good point. To me, it means those who believe in Christ, but are fence sitters, if not more then that, that turn from their first love and follow the false teachings that are being brought to us in many forms.

What are your thoughts?

To me after it is all said and done it comes down to faith.

Faith as true faith has tremendous consequences, you can't be a fence sitter and have the faith shown in scripture. So you have many that will hold to some sort of intellectual belief in Christ and will claim to have faith; but over time, as scripture shows the cares of the world crowd out their faith and the love for Christ it produces, they will worry how they look to the world, they will want to put God in a box to bring out when needed. I wrestle with this all of the time so I am not pointing fingers here. I think in Christian congregations you will see movements toward either the world and what it thinks or toward a rejection of Christ as shown in scripture. I don't think we can put a label on this as it will happen from both ends of the theological spectrum.

It is interesting to me how there has been a split right down the middle of congregations. The Episcoplains for example are often portrayed as way off the mark, and for good reason, however many Episcoplians totally reject what is going on in thier denomination and have dropped out and formed indepedant groups or joined with the more traditional Anglican groups. This same splitting is happening across many denominational groups, including Catholics. Maybe this is part of what we are talking about? Maybe not, I don't know.

I do think in the end there will be true Christians with faith ending up in a variety of congregations.

[Independence and Freedom]

We read in scripture that there will be a falling away, an apostasy. Without pointing finders at any denomination, I would like to have a discussion as to how we see this happening in the church today?

I see this, in part, being based on teachings that are begin promotes today, that when they are not fulfilled in it's meaning, people will become discouraged and turn from their faith. Some of these teaching I see are prosperity preaching, name it and claim it, and power preaching. What do you see?

Please, let's be mature in this discussion and do not name denominations, but reasons. If this turns into a denominational bashing thread, it will be closed.

I'm not sure of the verses off the top of my head, but God's people (the saved of 'sheep' as they are often referred to) may wonder. False teachers certainly spread confusion and doctrinal rifts and things like that. But the saved will never permanently turn away if I understand the scriptures correctly.

[OneLight]

I have to say that while I was thinking on this today, I realized that we are never told that these that fall away will leave the church at all. This led me to think about how the church has become so much like the world, especially in the music department, that it caused me to stop and think about it. On the radio today, on a main Christian station, played a song that asked what legacy are we going to leave behind. For some reason, this jumped out at me. When has it become a Christian concern of ours as to us leaving any legacy? I have always believed that we should die and He was to live through us. Who they see should be Him, not us. Why should we even care how the world sees us anyway?

Some preachers are all about becoming rich. Others talk about feeling good all the time. Others are all about the power. Where is Christ and His salvation?

Have we become so much like the world that we blend in really well? Can the world, if they looked at us from a distance, tell we are even Christians any more? Do they see a difference?

Just thinking our loud here, and when I say Christians, I mean as a whole, not as a singular.

[Guest man]

I realized that we are never told that these that fall away will leave the church at all.

You're right. A vast majority of the "fallen" will still call themselves christians. Even in the end when they're chasing after the beast, they will still consider themselves christians.

[OneLight]

I realized that we are never told that these that fall away will leave the church at all.

You're right. A vast majority of the "fallen" will still call themselves christians. Even in the end when they're chasing after the beast, they will still consider themselves christians.

Yes, because they will see him a God. How sad it is that those who are trying to set people straight today are called judgmental, when all they are doing is saying that what they are believing is not in the bible. Their reply is "You can't put God in a box" when warning about extra biblical signs and miracles. It are these signs and wonders that will cause them to believe in the false Christ.

[Guest]

Favors

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

John 16:1-3

[Smalcald]

Yeah, you know we have all met many people in our congregations who say all of the right things theologically, but when it comes to how they lead thier lives and how they really treat people, well there is obviosly a major problem, without love being right on doctrine and scripture does not really matter.

I do believe there are Christians who are really wrong on some points of scripture, but have a heart that is full of love and have a deep faith.

The more I think about it, the more I really don't know if I should speculate on the "falling away", which I do believe is happening, but I am not sure I am qualified or called to point out who what and when is falling away? I mainly need to worry about myself in this area.