Do you still go to heaven if you commit suicide?

[BigBert]

So I am taking it you believe that every time a person sins, they lose their salvation until they repent

Nope, we don't loose our salvation every time we sin. However, we are known by our fruits. Just like we would be suspicious if a serial murderer or rapist claimed to have saving faith, we might also be uncertain about whether a self-murderer (suicider) has saving faith.

Then according to your logic, everyone's salvation is under question, since we all continue to sin. We should question the salvation of a person wh tells a lie, who over eats, who gossips. Any person's life could be looked at at a given isolated moment and faith not appear to be present (i.e. Abraham's little episode in Egypt with Sarah). If the person was trully saved before they sinned (what ever the sin is) the sin cannot separate them from God. If it can, then salvation is maintained by our righteousness.

Our salvation is a result of our faith. Once we are saved, we are taught to walk in the Spirit and if we do so, we will not fulfil the lusts of the flesh, and will not be under the law. When we stop walking in the Spirit, and we go back to sinning, we are in danger of losing our salvation. If we commit a wilful transgression, like suicide for instance, and have no opportunity to repent, the result will be a loss of salvation and eternity in hell. This has nothing to do with questioning other people's salvation. We need to be concerned with ourselves, but I do not believe a Christian can continue in sin and remain saved. If you want to call that a salvation where someone believes it is maintained by our righteousness, so be it, but I don't believe that either. God is the one that empowers us to live right. We cannot do it by ourselves. The key is walking in the Spirit, and trusting God to give us the grace to walk the Christian walk. As we drift away from God, then we have the law staring us in the face telling us right from wrong, but we cannot live by those laws in our own strength. We must get up trusting God in the morning, continue to do so throughout the day, and go to bed trusting in God to keep us. Pray without ceasing.

So salvation is by faith, but maintained by works?

Yes. James 2:14-26

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so, faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

That passage does not say that salvation is maintained by works. That is a theology called covenental nomism. It says that true faith will result in works. Works are the fruit of faith (See Ephesians 2:8-10 for the exact logical relationship.

Works do come as a result of faith. I said that in another post. At the same time, the passage makes it clear that if a person has faith, and no works, their faith is dead. It is of no value. If a person goes about in constant sin after getting saved, they are not bearing the fruit of the Spirit, but they are fulfilling the lust of the flesh, and the Bible says such a one shall not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. When a person commits suicide, they are not walking in the Spirit, but they have committed murder of self, and no murderer has eternal life. It is Jesus that cleanses us from all of our past sins, and reconciles us to the Father. It is also Jesus that gives us the grace and ability to walk the Christian walk, but he doesn't make us continue with him. While no man can pluck us out of his hand, he won't force us to remain in it. Killing ones self is walking out of Jesus' hand and into the flames of hell.

Butero, if we're speeding on the highway in a state of anger and get killed in a crash, are we headed for hell, then, being in an unrepentant state at the moment, Jesus' death for all of our sins notwithstanding?

There is a difference between a wilful sin and something we are doing without thinking it through. Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." While I suppose it is possible that a person could pre-meditate that they are going to wilfully speed while in a state of anger, it is not likely. Most of the time, those things occur without giving them any thought, and a transgression that occurs without pre-meditation won't cause a person to lose their salvation. Most of the time, God will convict that Christian later on, and then they need to repent.

I probably don't see it that way, since the more attuned we would be to Christ and walking in His Spirit, the more likely we'd perceive an immediate problem with our thoughts and actions, as it would be obviously in stark contrast to His will for us. Is He not with us, convicting us of the possible dangers of our actions when our very life (and others around us) is at stake?

On Hebrews 10:26, that's certainly one way of interpretation. Many others may point that it's referring to those who have been presented the gospel (without necessarily accepting it internally and humbly) and then outright reject it in an utterly arrogant fashion (indicating a belief they don't in any way need such grace).

I admit to having great difficulty with such a subject, since our righteousness in God surely can only be because He views us through Christ, whose death paid the price for our sins. It seems when we start thinking "what if" on various scenarios, our salvation starts depending on things besides His righteousness and ultimate gift of love and it becomes one of performance. We move away from grace at that point, as any of our own best efforts are "as filthy rags" compared to the perfect holiness that God's standard requires. Either Christ's righteousness, death and resurrection saves us, or it fails to on its own and we're stuck with trying to determine what level of consistency, total walking in His ways, etc is required to ensure we're still saved.

Those who have been or are married realizes how sour a relationship based on such conditional love and acceptance can be.

Edited September 2, 2009 by BigBert

[DawnAnnette]

The doctrine of Once (IF) Saved Always Saved is so reassuring to those christains who trust that Jesus saves fully and completely. But for those who do not believe that Jesus can save them fully and completely, we humans can never, no matter how much we try to convince, argue, profess, beg, plead, or lovingly pray for anyone who will not accept that it is ALL ABOUT JESUS, and that they can not do anything that will remove their sin. We who believe that salvation is in Jesus and not in works must remember that salvation and conviction of the soul is only through the Holy Spirit. Some just never get past their own pirde long enough to hear that 1)WE CANT, 2)THERE IS ONE WHO CAN (JESUS) 3)IF WE ARE TO HAVE SALVATION WE MUST LET HIM (JESUS). There are those who will continue in their pride and believe that they are going to do it as my two year old nephew says, No Daddy, I do my by self. We must not throw our pearls at swine. And the gospel of salvation in and through Jesus alone is the greatest pearl of all. Those who reject it will reap their reward in hell.

I have some questions for those who claim salvation but believe it is not through Jesus ALONE, which allows for their loss of salvation, can you please tell me in your personal opinion, which of the laws must we keep to secure our salvation? And even more important to you, how are you personally doing at keeping all the laws that God says are required keeping if you reject that salvation is in Jesus alone?

Again please reread Hebrew 6:4-6 and understand that if you lose your salvation you will never regain it. So those who believe they have lost it they must resign themself to the fact they will go to hell. Jesus is not doing it again just for you. Jesus finished it once and for all. If you believe you have to help Jesus our cause what He did was not good enough to save you and keep you saved then you should check to see if it is Jesus who saved you to begin with. We are told that He is the author and finisher of our salvation. Is He it for you or are you working to help Him out.

In Jesus

DawnAnnette

[BigBert]

a basic "amen" to DawnAnnette and appreciate your post.

Will add that Hebrews 6:4-6 indeed is a difficult scripture for many. For one, though, we need to keep in light all the scriptures promoting Christ's death as fully sufficient for our salvation, meaning it's a strange stance to dismiss all of them even if the Hebrews passages indicate the possibility of actually losing it.

But, as we see, there are alternative analyses of what this scripture means. This link provides two considerations and is a brief read:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

[Smalcald]

The doctrine of Once (IF) Saved Always Saved is so reassuring to those christains who trust that Jesus saves fully and completely. But for those who do not believe that Jesus can save them fully and completely, we humans can never, no matter how much we try to convince, argue, profess, beg, plead, or lovingly pray for anyone who will not accept that it is ALL ABOUT JESUS, and that they can not do anything that will remove their sin. We who believe that salvation is in Jesus and not in works must remember that salvation and conviction of the soul is only through the Holy Spirit. Some just never get past their own pirde long enough to hear that 1)WE CANT, 2)THERE IS ONE WHO CAN (JESUS) 3)IF WE ARE TO HAVE SALVATION WE MUST LET HIM (JESUS). There are those who will continue in their pride and believe that they are going to do it as my two year old nephew says, No Daddy, I do my by self. We must not throw our pearls at swine. And the gospel of salvation in and through Jesus alone is the greatest pearl of all. Those who reject it will reap their reward in hell.

I have some questions for those who claim salvation but believe it is not through Jesus ALONE, which allows for their loss of salvation, can you please tell me in your personal opinion, which of the laws must we keep to secure our salvation? And even more important to you, how are you personally doing at keeping all the laws that God says are required keeping if you reject that salvation is in Jesus alone?

Again please reread Hebrew 6:4-6 and understand that if you lose your salvation you will never regain it. So those who believe they have lost it they must resign themself to the fact they will go to hell. Jesus is not doing it again just for you. Jesus finished it once and for all. If you believe you have to help Jesus our cause what He did was not good enough to save you and keep you saved then you should check to see if it is Jesus who saved you to begin with. We are told that He is the author and finisher of our salvation. Is He it for you or are you working to help Him out.

In Jesus

DawnAnnette

Hi Dawn,

I take a little different view.

Like you I think scripture is clear, Christ alone has saved us by His grace, we were dead in trespasses and sins we can't do anything to save ourselves.

However we have free will. No where in scripture does it say salvation is some sort of one time event or "experience" and after the big emotional experience we are fine as wine in the summer time. In fact scripture says that we have a lifelong journey, struggle and war in front of us, that we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, that we must finish the race, and some do not finish the race, and of course that God is not mocked, those who sow to the flesh and live in sin, will die in sin. Now faith is what sets us free from these things and the Holy Spirit gives us a new heart and mind to continually be sanctified, to continually live in repentance for our sins, to have sorrow for our sins, which is the only sacrifice Christ wants from us.

So works indeed do not save us, there is no "list", however there IS a lifestyle which would indeed show someone has no faith, there is a mindset that would show a lack of saving faith, we cannot continue in sin that grace may abound as Paul so sternly pointed out. As Christians we don't WANT to do that, but if we are in the process of turning our hearts away from God indeed we may very well reject His Word and follow our flesh.

[EricH]

Killing ones self is walking out of Jesus' hand and into the flames of hell.

Except of course that the scriptures do not say that

[EricH]

It is Jesus that cleanses us from all of our past sins, and reconciles us to the Father.

So your position is that Salvation is for sins committed up to that point, then after that something else must happen?

[Guest Butero]

BUTERO: Hello Dawn Annette. You made a lot of statements in this post, too many to simply give an answer to at the end, so I am going to break it down and answer it section by section.

DAWNANNETTE The doctrine of Once (IF) Saved Always Saved is so reassuring to those christains who trust that Jesus saves fully and completely.

BUTERO The doctrine of unconditional eternal security is also reassuring to those who are in continual sin and are clinging to the idea that they can do anything and remain saved. I don't know how many people I have come across over the years that are in fornication, doing drugs or drinking, and claiming to be saved by grace. I even know one who is in this type of lifestyle who talks about looking forward to the rapture. The doctrine may be reassuring to some, but it will lead many into hell.

DAWNANNETTE But for those who do not believe that Jesus can save them fully and completely, we humans can never, no matter how much we try to convince, argue, profess, beg, plead, or lovingly pray for anyone who will not accept that it is ALL ABOUT JESUS, and that they can not do anything that will remove their sin. We who believe that salvation is in Jesus and not in works must remember that salvation and conviction of the soul is only through the Holy Spirit. Some just never get past their own pirde long enough to hear that 1)WE CANT, 2)THERE IS ONE WHO CAN (JESUS) 3)IF WE ARE TO HAVE SALVATION WE MUST LET HIM (JESUS).

BUTERO Those Baptists sure do a good job of indoctrinating their congregation. Of course Jesus can save someone fully and completely. He can do anything. When we accept him as Lord and Savior, we are so saved if we died, we would go to heaven, and not because of anything we have done. The wages or penalty for sin is death, and that means that without a full pardon from God, we would have all gone to hell. The question comes in after we get saved.

I do find your arguments interesting, that is, about how salvation and conviction of the soul can only come through the Holy Spirit. Does that mean you are a follower of Calvin? He taught that God has decided who will be saved or lost before the foundation of the earth, and only those he chose to become Christians will. Since it is only through the conviction of the Holy Spirit we can come to a place where we will repent, only those God sends his Spirit to can be saved. I have no problem with that argument. At least it is pure doctrine. Those who believe that way are putting our salvation 100 percent in God's hands. On the other hand, those who claim that salvation came as a result of them praying at an old fashioned altar are saved by their own works. These people believe that their confession saved them, rather than trusting fully in God's sovereignty. At the same time, they somehow think that their act of faith saved them, yet nothing they do can ever cause them to be lost again. That makes no logical sense to me. If it is prideful to believe that we must live right after getting saved to stay saved, then I would argue it is prideful to believe that your act of praying at an altar had anything to do with your salvation.

DAWN ANNETTE There are those who will continue in their pride and believe that they are going to do it as my two year old nephew says, No Daddy, I do my by self. We must not throw our pearls at swine. And the gospel of salvation in and through Jesus alone is the greatest pearl of all. Those who reject it will reap their reward in hell.

BUTERO No offense intended, but what a bunch of judgemental dribble. I don't believe in unconditional eternal security, and neither do I believe I can get saved or stay saved in my own power. I believe that Christ alone saved me, and Christ alone gives me the ability to abstain from sin as I walk in the Spirit day by day. Must not throw our pearls at swine? I think I have just been insulted?

DAWN ANNTETTE I have some questions for those who claim salvation but believe it is not through Jesus ALONE, which allows for their loss of salvation, can you please tell me in your personal opinion, which of the laws must we keep to secure our salvation? And even more important to you, how are you personally doing at keeping all the laws that God says are required keeping if you reject that salvation is in Jesus alone?

BUTERO Those who walk in the Spirit have God's laws in their heart, not on tablets of stone, and they are under no obligation to keep any particular laws to be saved. Those who walk in the Spirit will bear fruit, as is taught in Galatians. The law was given for law breakers, so they will see the error of their way. Those who refuse to follow Christ day by day and be led of the Spirit are putting themselves back up under the law, and therefore are obligated to keep them all. Galatians 5:18 says, "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." Verses 19 through 21 give examples of those not walking in the Spirit, and the end result is that those that do such things "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Ever known of a Christian doing those things? Doesn't it seem like a contradiction to claim on the one hand that no one can lose their salvation, yet on the other hand having the Bible say that someone guilty of drunkness for instance, shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Your doctrine is making God's Word out to be a lie.

I am fully trusting in Christ. In my own power I cannot live right. Nobody can live right in their own power. If we try to write down a list of dos and don'ts, we will fail. We have to trust in the supernatural power of God's Spirit to live right. So to answer your question again, I am not trying to keep al the laws God requires. What I am doing is getting up seeking God and reading his Word, communicating with him throughout the day, and seeking God at night. In other words, walking in the Spirit. I have zero confidence in my own ability to do right. Before God opened up my eyes to this truth, I was failing miserably.

DAWN ANNETTEAgain please reread Hebrew 6:4-6 and understand that if you lose your salvation you will never regain it. So those who believe they have lost it they must resign themself to the fact they will go to hell. Jesus is not doing it again just for you. Jesus finished it once and for all. If you believe you have to help Jesus our cause what He did was not good enough to save you and keep you saved then you should check to see if it is Jesus who saved you to begin with. We are told that He is the author and finisher of our salvation. Is He it for you or are you working to help Him out.

BUTERO I have read this passage, as well as the entire Bible through many times over. I am just about through reading straight through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation for the 14th time, and I can't tell you how many times I have read the New Testament straight through, and in sections. What it is saying in that passage is that those who completely fall away cannot come to repentance. In other words, their comes a time where God's Spirit stops convicting you, and the reason you cannot be renewed is because you won't feel any need to repent. You will become a reprobate. This is not speaking of someone who commits a wilful sin and dies suddenly. The situation is completely differen't. If I was to plan a murder, and carry it out and die suddenly, I would lose my salvation, but until the Spirit stops convicting me, and I have completely fallen away, I have the opportunity to repent and be restored. You can grieve God's Spirit so long that he will stop dealing with you, and that is what is meant by falling away. This takes place over time.

Now back to your other point. I don't believe I did do anything to save myself. Without God's grace, I wouldn't be saved. Without God's grace, I have no hope of remaining saved. Let's look at your argument again. I am assuming you hold to the traditional Baptist theology that teaches that your salvation experience goes something like this. 1. You hear the Preacher give his sermon. 2. God's spirit convicts you of your sins. 3. You have to decide whether or not to accept or reject Christ. 4. You make the decision to get saved. You can't stand the conviction any longer, so you go to the altar and pray the sinner's prayer. 5. You are eternally saved. Nothing you can do, including murder, adultery, theft, anything, can cause you to lose your salvation. This sounds silly even as I am typing it out. Your 3rd and 4th step means you had to do something to contribute to your salvation. You had a part in getting saved, but you can't do anything to be lost again.

What you are believing is watered down Calvanism. He taught that before you were conceived, God created you to be saved or lost. As such, God is 100 percent in control of your decisions. If you get saved, it is only because he chose you to be saved, and if you stay lost, it is because you were programed that way. In that sense, eternal security makes sense. You just better hope you were one of the elect.

I have been in the Christian Church for a long time, and I have heard every Baptist argument there is for unconditional eternal security. The doctrine makes no sense. Calvanism makes sense. Believing we have to continue to follow God to remain saved makes sense. Unconditional eternal security or "the perseverance of the saints" doctrine makes no sense. I am not meaning to offend you in the responses I have given, but I have dealt with people like you for as long as I can remember. You have this idea that to believe you can lose your salvation is some kind of heretical doctrine, and it is trusting in self to be saved. You have this idea that those of us with that belief are full of pride. You even convince yourself that you are fully trusting in Christ, when for the most part, those with your beliefs think you had a part in your salvation when you prayed the sinner's prayer. You need to re-think your own position, because I am pretty well settled in mine. I can entertain Calvanism, but I completely reject the watered down version being preached in most Baptist Churches today.

[Guest Butero]

Killing ones self is walking out of Jesus' hand and into the flames of hell.

Except of course that the scriptures do not say that

I didn't say they did. I have had enough encounters with people of the "unconditional eternal security" persuation to know that at some point, they will try to misuse the scripture about nobody being able to pluck you out of God's hand to supposedly prove their position, and it does no such thing. There is nothing to stop someone from walking away of their own accord, and the Bible never says that they can't.

[BigBert]

Butero, I think you give some good food for thought, and I'm going to go back and study these verses and surrounding scriptures again as well.

I will say that I think you're nitpicking on the area of prayer/confession in trying to call it works. I see such as merely part of the response needed by anyone to accept the gift of salvation. Do we all not grab, reach out, acknowledge a gift when we receive it from someone? Isn't that what acknowledgment and a prayer to God for His ultimate gift is?

[Guest Butero]

Butero, I think you give some good food for thought, and I'm going to go back and study these verses and surrounding scriptures again as well.

I will say that I think you're nitpicking on the area of prayer/confession in trying to call it works. I see such as merely part of the response needed by anyone to accept the gift of salvation. Do we all not grab, reach out, acknowledge a gift when we receive it from someone? Isn't that what acknowledgment and a prayer to God for His ultimate gift is?

I don't see it as being nit picky at all. If you have someone saying that one person is in the wrong for having a part in their salvation, then you would expect that the other party had nothing to do with theirs. If they are going to claim they got saved as a result of making a decision for Christ at an altar, then they contributed to their salvation by an act of their will. I guarantee if you ask any Calvanist, they won't consider it being nit picky. I have visited a Primitive Baptist Church before where they hold to that doctrine.