Desire to discuss spiritual gifts with someone...

[stevehut]

not everyone has the gift of tongues(1 Cor.12:29-31).The gifts are given by the will of the HOLY SPIRIT (1 Cor. 12:11), not by the will of man.

Yup.

[AllforJesustheLord]

Thanks Steve.

I will look up some info on that. I have several study aids that are among the best one can get regarding the Greek of the New Testament (The Word Study New Testament and the The Word Study Concordance).

But even if true that perfect is gender neutral and such, I am not sure I follow the logic of thinking this proves that the perfect cannot be the second coming of Christ? Or conversely that this means that the perfect refers to the Bible? I know you haven't come out and said so Steve but do you believe that the perfect is the Bible? If not what else could it be such that tongues have passed away because the perfect has already come?

I will look up to see if other persons in the New Testament are referred to by both masculine and gender-neutral terms. Whether there is a definite correlation between referring to a man with masculine genders or not.

Incidentally I am not sure what the perfect is referring to exactly, though I do not believe that it refers to the Bible based on the context in 1 Cor 13 and do believe that it has not yet come (whatever it is). But I venture into as yet unsupported opinion .

Carlos

Are you speaking about the chapter about love? When the perfect is know the partial is gone, which is my own words, and not an exact quote. The thought is, when we are made perfect through Jesus Christ(Hasou Christo, YeHSHua MeSHiaCH) we are no longer seeing in part, or knowing in part rather we are known, as He knows us, thus we see all, and know all through Jesus Christ our Lord, and God.

[carlos123]

Thanks for the additional input everyone. Much appreciated. Though it seems that we are starting to veer off into just expressing our opinions. Sometimes contrary. Sometimes not. And batting around different opinions. Instead of going verse by verse and discussing what particular verses say.

I still would like to see this thread end up helping us come to agreement over this issue. I wonder if that will happen readily if we just toss around opinions about verses without looking at the verses themselves in detail. I speak that for me as much as anyone else by the way .

Steve I want to address some of what you said a few messages back in your initial response to my gender of words post. I have thought of what you said for quite a part of my day and have been hesistant to say what I really think out of concern that you might take it the wrong way and end up getting defensive. Which will not serve God's purposes for us to move toward agreement. Yet at the same time I feel a need to address some of what you said in public since you said what you said in public. I want to help others have hope that there is indeed, with God's help, a way to agreement. In order to do that I have to point out how comments like those you posted, in part, hinder rather than help us move toward agreement. I hope you find it in your heart to take what I say in a good spirit Steve. I do not mean to say anything in a way that will cause you to get defensive or get offended.

Among other things you said "I haven't given a personal view on this subject. "perfection" is a gender-neutral term. Period. Anyone who tells you differently is a fool.". Leaving aside the gender issue which is rather confusing I think to many people who might read this thread I do not believe that calling someone a fool because they do not believe what you believe is fruitful to us moving toward agreement with God's help Steve. Would you agree?

Frankly I was rather surprised that you would say that since it strikes me as very un-Christlike. Someone can believe something different than you and I, and in fact might be completely wrong in their belief, but that does not make them a fool Steve. Misguided - perhaps. Ignorant of certain truths - perhaps. But a fool? I don't think God would think of them as such Steve. Do you?

If all it took to be a fool was a wrong belief in something that was obviously wrong to others like you and me then it would seem that we have all been fools at one time or another. For we have all been ignorant and in need of help to see God's truth many times in our lives. And still are from time to time.

I guess what I am saying Steve is that it seems to me that saying things like that about others in a discussion does not promote God's purposes for a discussion of this sort. Rather it feeds the very division we are trying to overcome by causing people to get defensive or otherwise feel hurt.

I say this to point out that there is altogether too much of this type of thing in the Christian world and that it's got to stop. We are brothers in Christ (as far as I know) and should focus on helping one another discover God's truth. With the one who is aware of it more helping and encouraging, not hindering or condeming, the other to see the same thing.

One other thing you said Steve that I will comment on. And again I am commenting on it as an example of the kind of comments that hinder God's purposes for this kind of discussion rather than helping.

You said "I think you're trying too hard to prove a pre-existing opinion, bro. ". That is an opinion and it is an opinion that in this case isn't even supported by any fact that I can see Steve. You are writing a book Steve. I wrote one measly post in comparison. Who is trying harder? Your comment implies that I am being dishonest in what I am sharing. That I am trying to prove a pre-existing opinion rather than trying to understand what the word says in as an unbiased manner as I know how.

To be sure we all approach the word with some bias based on the beliefs that we have come to adhere to over time. But I would hope that both of us are aware of this and that we can consciously approach the Word in a fresh way to see if it might be teaching something different than we have previously believed. Without accusing each other of trying to prove anything in an intellectually dishonest way. As would be the case if I was just using verses to prove a pre-existing opinion without looking to the Word sincerely to learn together what God might have us believe.

It is these kinds of statements Steve, expressing condemnation and accusation, that lead Christians to divide. It is of the flesh. Not of the Spirit. I should know for I have more often than not been dishing them out to others. To my shame.

I ask you to please consider not using such statements in our futher discussions Steve so that we might see God work through this thread to move us all toward united thinking around His truth.

Perhaps it would have been better if I would have said these things to you in private Steve but I felt that saying them in public through this thread would be instructive in helping us all move forward to agreement as God would have us do. Not to mention that the public nature of a forum thread gives anyone an implicitly understood right to respond publicly for the benefit of all.

Thanks.

Carlos

[stevehut]

1- I want to help others have hope that there is indeed, with God's help, a way to agreement. 

2- Leaving aside the gender issue which is rather confusing

3- Someone can believe something different than you and I

4- Misguided - perhaps.  Ignorant of certain truths - perhaps.  But a fool? 

5- If all it took to be a fool was a wrong belief in something that was obviously wrong to others like you and me

6- You said "I think you're trying too hard to prove a pre-existing opinion, bro. ". 

7- To be sure we all approach the word with some bias based on the beliefs that we have come to adhere to over time.

8- Perhaps it would have been better if I would have said these things to you in private

1- I don't know about you, but I am not interested in agreeing with anyone. I am simply interested in finding the truth.

2- Not confusing at all. It's very simple.

3- I didn't express a belief on this subject. I stated a fact about the definition of a word. You can't change the definitions of words at will, just because you don't like them.

4- OK, maybe a poor choice of words there.

5- No, that isn't my definition of a fool. My definition is a person who refuses to recognize obvious facts.

6- Yep. Everyone does that. Me included, sometimes.

7- Yup.

8- No prob. Nothing to hide over here.

[carlos123]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your additional input. I can see that we are simply not going to agree on some things Steve. Given that, it seems best to steer this thread back to discussing what verses generally say without continuing to get into the nitty gritty details of the gender of words and such. I know you may disagree with me Steve but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I am not saying that taking the gender of words into account has no value. Only that it might mire this thread down into fruitless wrangling about words at a time when it seems best to build a more general consenses about the overall meaning of various verses relevant to the issue of spiritual gifts first.

Incidentally I am not aiming for agreement such that the truth gets lost or watered down or otherwise ignored. I am interested in aiming for agreement around God's truth so that we might come to experience the unity that God means for His children to have. I guess I do not see aiming for agreement and God's truth as being mutually exclusive Steve. At least that seems to be what you are implying. That one cannot seek one without sacrificing the other. I believe that God wants unity of thinking. And I believe it can happen. Even on this thread. If we will avoid the pitfalls that can keep Christians at odds with each other.

So without further adoo as they say I would like to go verse by verse in 1 Cor 13 with anyone who might care to join in. To see if God might not move among us to bring about a uniity of thinking on this issue.

Let me start with some questions and thoughts sorrounding the verses immediately preceeding and immediately following 1 Cor 13 if I might. If anyone has any thoughts that might give us insight on what these verses are saying please pipe up and share your thoughts. If we disagree let's work through the disagreement to see if we might not be able to arrive at unity of thinking one verse at a time.

I know we all have a tendency to wander far and wide in sharing what we think but I think for purposes of building consensus and working toward unity of thinking we need to reign in this tendency and go slowly. Just a few verses at a time.

1 Corinthians 12:31 (NASB)

But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

It seems obvious from this verse that there are varying degrees of gifts. Some being greater than others. Setting aside the issue of whether any of the gifts are around for today or not for the moment, what does it mean for a gift to be greater than another? What is Paul saying when he says that he will show a more excellent way. A more excellent way when contrasted or compared with what other way? A way to what? Does anyone have any thoughts?

1 Corinthians 14:1 (NASB)

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

In this verse Paul seems to be summarizing the major point he made in 1 Cor 13. Pursue love. He also seems to bring in what he said at the tail end of 1 Cor 12. Namely that we are to desire spiritual gifts. And he even makes once again the same sort of distinction he made in 1 Cor 12:31. Namely that there are some gifts (the greater) that we are to especially desire. Prophesy being one example of such a greater gift.

In trying to understand what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 13 it seems important to understand it in the context of what he is saying immediately before the 13th chapter and immediately afterwards in 1 Cor 14:1. Namely pursue love, desire spiritual gifts in general, but especially the greater ones.

Does that about summarize what Paul is getting at just before and just after 1 Cor 13?

Incidentally in case anyone does not know the numbering system used in our Bibles was added much later than when it was written. So any breakdowns in what is included in a chapter do not neccessarily reflect the fuller context that was intended by the original author. In this case Paul (one could rightly point out God as being the ultimate author of course ).

Carlos

[Guest shadow2b]

-As far as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was taught that it happens as soon as you are saved. I have yet to hear any real evidence that backs up the charismatic teaching of Baptism of the Holy Spirit.       

-Mayhap EXTENDED INTERLUDE OF VOCATIONAL ACQUISITION IN RELATED

-FIELD OF ENDEAVOR WOULD ENHANCE KNOWLEDGE TO APPROPRIATE

-LEVELS OF ENLIGHTMENT TO SUBSTANTIATE ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTIONS

-BEFORE VOLUNTARILY ENGAGING AUDIO MECHANISM PROCLAIMING FACTS

-CLEARLY REFUTED IN -SCRIPTURE WHICH LEAD TO RESTORATION OF SOUND

-DOCTRINE & GOOD MANNERS TO THOSE THAT SEEK TRUTH--NOT

-DENOMINATIONAL DOCTRINE---

-ACTS 19:VS.2---------

-he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.

-luke.11.vs.13-------

-13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

-ACTS 2:38-39--------

-Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the

-name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of

-the Holy Spirit.

-For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as

-many as the Lord our God will call."

-1 CORINTHIANS 14.vs.18-----

-I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

-ACTS 8:vss.14-thru.-20------

-Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received

-the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,

-who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the

-Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been

-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[carlos123]

Thanks for your input Shadow2b but I am going to wait to see if anyone cares to go verse by verse in 1 Cor 13 first without going into a different though certainly related subject, such as the Baptism of the Spirit and what that is.

The trouble I see with sharing a ton of verses on a subject is that it makes it more difficult to come to agreement since there is so much more material to go over together. And so much more potential to continue in disagreement as contrary opinions are expressed about it all. In a general sense. Wihtout going verse by verse. A little at a time.

Also the context is missing, not only of each verse taking into account the sorrounding verses but also the book context in which they are found is not laid out. Resulting oftentimes in Christians just butting heads instead of working toward agreement under God's guidance.

As they say "the devil is the in the details". I think that is the saying that is used sometimes in the world to say that it's in the details where one makes it or breaks it. In our case in moving toward agreement or not.

We need a more disciplined approach I think than just throwing bunches of verses at each other to support a particular view of what God is saying through the Scriptures.

Carlos

[stevehut]

As far as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was taught that it happens as soon as you are saved.

Who told you that? Did they explain it to you from Scripture?

[Guest gogoswing]

Acts 11:16,17 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?

There is One, and the other two are related.

Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Cor.12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

How ya like me now?!!! :suspect: :oww:

[jamie]

I have spoken in tongues and i have the gift of prophecy....so the word must be true. Dont go by what anybody tells you, if the word says there are gifts, there are gifts!

Edited July 18, 2004 by jamie