Fez Posted September 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I have been ding a study on predestination and free will (my head is spinning ), but I came across a verse about Adams fall, and mine, in abook called Chosen by God by R.C.Sproul. Now without getting into the predestination vs free will debate, or if Sproul is worth reading, here is the verse that caught my attention:- Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. It would seem to suggest that Adams fall was no only about man. The whole creation groans as it awaits the full redemtion of man. When man sinned, the repercussions were felt throughout the whole range of man's domain. because of Adams sin then, not only do we suffer, but lions, elephants, bee's and puppy dogs also suffer. They did not ask to suffer, but were hurt by the fall of their master. And to take it one step further, 8:22 above - the Whole creation has been groaning together - the whole creation - the universe? Because of our sin. If thats true, Gods saving Grace just becomes that much more important to us, and we have a lot more to answer for! Any comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted September 16, 2009 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 600 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,390 Content Per Day: 7.55 Reputation: 28,140 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 16, 2009 Fez, I spent a great deal of time pondering on this some years ago, and while my personal thoughts are as much metaphysacal thought as0 scripture, I believe when Adam sinned and fell, the whole of creation came under the attack of Lucifer. We know that there is and will be war in heaven and end up in war here on earth. I know that scripture calls earth Satans kingdom, but I see glimpses of his evilness expanding wherever he goes. When God finally gets His fill of all this, He'll put his foot down and end all the rebellion; but until that time all creation has to put up with that tricky darkness. In the Book of Revelation we read that there is a big war in heaven and Satan and all his followers are kicked out of heaven to earth. At the sounding of the trumpet of the Seventh Angel in the book of Revelation we hear that the kingdom/s of this world have become the kingdom of our Lord. It is only then that the dark power of this entity will be restrained and Creation can go back to it's original state. It should be a really nice place to live.... and we'll always have good neighbors. Some people ask why we are here, and I believe it is at least partially because God needs something/someone to judge the fallen angels. Paul tells us that will be the saints. Well it wouldn't be fair and right for God to create the jury to judge the entity that had wronged Him; So he created man and let Satan himself bring the knowledge of good and evil to the very things that would be his judge in the end. If that's not righteous judgement I don't know what is. But that's just "a" gospel according to Sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted September 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Author Share Posted September 16, 2009 Other One, I asked for comments, so thanks, lets see what others have to say as well. The question is more of a search for a greater answer on my part, but I don't want to complicate things just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted September 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Author Share Posted September 16, 2009 I have been ding a study on predestination and free will (my head is spinning ), but I came across a verse about Adams fall, and mine, in abook called Chosen by God by R.C.Sproul. Now without getting into the predestination vs free will debate, or if Sproul is worth reading, here is the verse that caught my attention:- Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. It would seem to suggest that Adams fall was no only about man. The whole creation groans as it awaits the full redemtion of man. When man sinned, the repercussions were felt throughout the whole range of man's domain. because of Adams sin then, not only do we suffer, but lions, elephants, bee's and puppy dogs also suffer. They did not ask to suffer, but were hurt by the fall of their master. And to take it one step further, 8:22 above - the Whole creation has been groaning together - the whole creation - the universe? Because of our sin. If thats true, Gods saving Grace just becomes that much more important to us, and we have a lot more to answer for! Any comments? The angels were created before man and saw the fall of satan and his devils.Our journey beginning with Adam is a witness to them as well.They also wait earnestly to see God's righteous plan unveil. Our role in this is most important.^5 Pro 23:15 My son, if thine heart be wise, my heart shall rejoice, even mine. Yes I agree with that. But I also postulate that our all knowing God knew Adam would sin, knew satan would rebel, and therefore had a purpose for sin. What this purpose is, I am not yet sure of, but I search...... Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Elly Posted September 17, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 415 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/31/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1945 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. This is why I do not believe there is life on any other planets If there were, they would be under sin because the word of God says the WHOLE CREATION is groaning, waiting for redeemption. Won't it be great when sin is gone forevermore!!!!!! And the new heaven and earth!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alljoy123 Posted September 17, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 261 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/27/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2009 i don't believe it all started with adam...Lucifer sinned first and convinced angels too.......how much more easier would it be to trick man? Our God is an all knowing God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted September 18, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted September 18, 2009 "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: " (Psa 8:4-6) That word angels is actually a translation of the Hebrew word elohiym - the Hebrew word used mostly for God, but also sometimes for gods. This has made me wonder at times if man wasn't supposed to rule even over the angels, even though the angels are more powerful than man: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1Co 6:3) Also because Satan said, "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" (Isa 14:13). Everyone always assumes "the stars of God" are referring to angels, yet the human sons of God are frequently referred to as "the stars" in the Bible, and Joseph dreamed about the sun, the moon and the other eleven stars bowing before him, and the woman of Revelation 12 has a garland of twelve stars on her head. Those are just thoughts, though, not a doctrine in my mind - but it does seem that man was originally given authority (under God) over ALL of God's works, and Satan usurped man's position, bringing death into the universe. Lekh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts