just a question

[mizzdy]

Mizzy, I think outloud all the time too, nothing wrong with it, I was just giving feedback. I disagree with your statement in red. If you read my response again, I was asking you to comment on other people's speculations.

Not sure what you are refering to if you could point me to what posts you have in mind I will gladly take a look. We can disagree no problem with that at all. I was never saying Eve knew childbirth herself only that it seemedthere was some kind of possiblity she had some kind of familiarity with the subject which I did liken to perhaps she saw the animals giving birth and knew she was going to go through the same thing.

[~candice~]

And Andy, what was the "uhmm, ok?" I thought sharing a perspective showing how grace was around in the OT (it is actually mentioned MORE times in the OT than the NT) would be worthwhile for some. Should I avoid any discussion with you from now on? It seems we have gotten off on the wrong foot!

Peace.

Ken

Please don't read any malice into "Umm... ok". It means... I am thinking, collecting ideas, OK, here we go...

Your perspective was good. No need to avoid me.

[~candice~]

Believe me Andy I have a very thick skin and have read your posts. I was not agreeing or disagreeing nor was I mocking, harassing, or ridiculing you and I was not throwing stones or calling names where do you get the idea I was? I have been on this board for awhile now and belong to several other boards as well so I am not new to others disagreeing/agreeing and have no problem with that at all, we are to reason things together, iron sharpens iron, and that includes things that are not completely clear and we can also put forth opinions and thoughts when issues are not clearly defined in scripture. Thats what boards like this are for, aren't they? I have seen it time and time again even in your own posts. When I posted to Ken as to not musing anymore I am sorry you felt I was somehow harrassing, mocking, ridiculing, casting stones or even calling you names, I assure you I was not doing so yet I do apologize if you were offended in any way.

I never said that you were mocking or throwing stones etc, I clarified that I wasn't doing that to you!!!

I am confused about why you think that you cannot put your musings out there anymore. The the only responses you got were mine, but they shouldn't have dissuaded you from sharing .

[~candice~]

Mizzy, I think outloud all the time too, nothing wrong with it, I was just giving feedback. I disagree with your statement in red. If you read my response again, I was asking you to comment on other people's speculations.

Not sure what you are refering to if you could point me to what posts you have in mind I will gladly take a look. We can disagree no problem with that at all. I was never saying Eve knew childbirth herself only that it seemedthere was some kind of possiblity she had some kind of familiarity with the subject which I did liken to perhaps she saw the animals giving birth and knew she was going to go through the same thing.

Actually, I was asking you to comment on the potential that Adam and Eve had children prefall, or that God created other humans in His image prefall, and the impact that this would have on us inheriting Adam's sin.

It is an interesting musing, but I think unscriptural. It would mean that the descendants of those other people would not have inherited the original sin. Then it goes into why Jesus must have been born of man, without sin, etc, in order to be the second Adam.

This is why I asked you to comment, because I think the implications of the idea preclude it from being scriptural, even though it is a quite popular idea.

[mizzdy]

Mizzy, I think outloud all the time too, nothing wrong with it, I was just giving feedback. I disagree with your statement in red. If you read my response again, I was asking you to comment on other people's speculations.

Not sure what you are refering to if you could point me to what posts you have in mind I will gladly take a look. We can disagree no problem with that at all. I was never saying Eve knew childbirth herself only that it seemedthere was some kind of possiblity she had some kind of familiarity with the subject which I did liken to perhaps she saw the animals giving birth and knew she was going to go through the same thing.

Actually, I was asking you to comment on the potential that Adam and Eve had children prefall, or that God created other humans in His image prefall, and the impact that this would have on us inheriting Adam's sin.

It is an interesting musing, but I think unscriptural. It would mean that the descendants of those other people would not have inherited the original sin. Then it goes into why Jesus must have been born of man, without sin, etc, in order to be the second Adam.

This is why I asked you to comment, because I think the implications of the idea preclude it from being scriptural, even though it is a quite popular idea.

Whatever the misunderstanding that have arrived here lets just put it away and go forward. You did say to comment on others speculations so thats why I asked. The first two chapters of Genesis seem to be following different time lines, retelling the same story or whatever. If we look at Gen. 1:26 and on we see God making man in His image, giving them dominion over creatures and the earth and telling them to go forth and muliply, fill the earth etc. When or usually when we see the words go forth and mulitiply we generally think of reproducing or at least doing something to some increase. Then we get to chpt 2 and it all starts again? verse 4 tells us its the history of the heavens and earth, how God planted the garden, creating man and then putting him in the garden etc. In the end of chpt. 2 God joins man and wife which tends many to lean towards the idea this is the beginning the earthly family. Then we get to the fall, and the verses where Eve gives birth to Cain and Abel. God says in chpt. 3 that He will greatly mulitply sorrow and conception, the language is suggestive of prior knowledge of what I don't know. Could Eve know about birth from watching animals? did Adam and Eve concieve their sons out of the garden while they still had access to the garden before God sent the cherbim to guard it? I certainly don't have the answer its just something to think about on occasion when the subject comes up.

[~candice~]

The first two chapters of Genesis seem to be following different time lines, retelling the same story or whatever. If we look at Gen. 1:26 and on we see God making man in His image, giving them dominion over creatures and the earth and telling them to go forth and muliply, fill the earth etc. When or usually when we see the words go forth and mulitiply we generally think of reproducing or at least doing something to some increase. Then we get to chpt 2 and it all starts again? verse 4 tells us its the history of the heavens and earth, how God planted the garden, creating man and then putting him in the garden etc. In the end of chpt. 2 God joins man and wife which tends many to lean towards the idea this is the beginning the earthly family. Then we get to the fall, and the verses where Eve gives birth to Cain and Abel. God says in chpt. 3 that He will greatly mulitply sorrow and conception, the language is suggestive of prior knowledge of what I don't know. Could Eve know about birth from watching animals? did Adam and Eve concieve their sons out of the garden while they still had access to the garden before God sent the cherbim to guard it? I certainly don't have the answer its just something to think about on occasion when the subject comes up.

Do you think there are two creation accounts, or one (told twice, each from different perspectives)?

If man in Gen 1, is not Adam in Gen 2, then there exists at least one man who has not inherited Adam's sin nature. But Romans 3:23 tells us that all have sinned. Doesn't this render that an impossibility?

As for Eve giving birth, have you heard of the notion that women were originally designed to give birth pain free? I think it is in error, claiming that prefall, Eve would have had no pain if she went into labour. ("greatly increase" makes me think that there was something there to increase). However, it need not mean that she has a reference point by which to compare labour pains pre and post fall.

[mizzdy]

Do you think there are two creation accounts, or one (told twice, each from different perspectives)?

If man in Gen 1, is not Adam in Gen 2, then there exists at least one man who has not inherited Adam's sin nature. But Romans 3:23 tells us that all have sinned. Doesn't this render that an impossibility?

As for Eve giving birth, have you heard of the notion that women were originally designed to give birth pain free? I think it is in error, claiming that prefall, Eve would have had no pain if she went into labour. ("greatly increase" makes me think that there was something there to increase). However, it need not mean that she has a reference point by which to compare labour pains pre and post fall.

Do I think scripture tells us there are two creations, no, I don't think it does. Can I speculate about there being a gap? a pre-Adamic race, I think I can do that. We can speculate Eve would not have had pain we are just not told. I would never say the man in Gen. 1 was not Adam just can't go there. What I do see in scripture that God created the earth and all then created the garden and set Adam there which makes me believe he also could go in and out of the garden anytime he wanted to. You do see the greatly increase could mean she had prior knowledge to something within that context, though the increase could perhaps mean pain was involved in childbirth before the fall, if that could even possibly be the case. If I said I was going to greatly increase your paycheck, it would mean you already had a check to compare it to.

This is what the Literal Translation of the Bible has Gen 3:16 'He said to the woman, I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception; you shall bear sons in sorrow, and your desire shall be toward your husband; and he shall rule over you'

Its interesting to see that many translations are nearly identical in the thoughts. Its speculations of course that she knew about childbirth yet we do not know how long they were in the garden. We know that while they were in the garden they were in the presence of the Lord and when Cain was sent away he left the presence of the Lord, Cain cries about being driven out of somewhere also.

[~candice~]

Do I think scripture tells us there are two creations, no, I don't think it does. Can I speculate about there being a gap? a pre-Adamic race, I think I can do that. We can speculate Eve would not have had pain we are just not told. I would never say the man in Gen. 1 was not Adam just can't go there. What I do see in scripture that God created the earth and all then created the garden and set Adam there which makes me believe he also could go in and out of the garden anytime he wanted to. You do see the greatly increase could mean she had prior knowledge to something within that context, though the increase could perhaps mean pain was involved in childbirth before the fall, if that could even possibly be the case. If I said I was going to greatly increase your paycheck, it would mean you already had a check to compare it to.

This is what the Literal Translation of the Bible has Gen 3:16 'He said to the woman, I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception; you shall bear sons in sorrow, and your desire shall be toward your husband; and he shall rule over you'

Its interesting to see that many translations are nearly identical in the thoughts. Its speculations of course that she knew about childbirth yet we do not know how long they were in the garden. We know that while they were in the garden they were in the presence of the Lord and when Cain was sent away he left the presence of the Lord, Cain cries about being driven out of somewhere also.

We are on the same page about creation then, I think there is only one creation, two accounts, demarcated by Gen 2:4.

Speculation is OK, so long as we hold it up to the light of the Word. And I think this sharpens us, as we through out ideas that do not fit, and learn the Word more as a result.

The pre-adamite race debate... well... I break it into two categories. If you consider them made in the image of God (which I do not) then you have the sin-inheritance issue. If you don't consider them made in the image of God, they are merely animals, and are inconsequential.

I still don't think that Eve had a reference point by which to compare pain pre and post fall. If the government passes new tax laws that increase the tax rates for low income earners, then from my baby daughter's point of view, her tax will be greatly increased (future tense) even though she has never paid tax before and has no experience or reference point to speak of. Infact when she grows up and pays taxes, she will never know what it was like to pay the old rate of tax. It is an analogy, and not perfect, but I hope it gets my point across.

I also wonder how long they managed to last in the garden before the fall? If you believe that Eve witnessed animal birth, then they must have lasted in the garden equal to or longer than the shortest gestation period of a mammal. To make it on par with human birth, that gestation period would be quite significant. We don't know if animals were created pregnant, or created sexually mature, or if, like humans, they had much longer lifespans and also began to breed much later in life.

Seems like there are a lot of things that need to be speculated about to answer the question! I think God has told us what we need to know.

[~Shalhevet~]

I think all too often we blame Satan for our sin and temptation, when infact, it is usually just us!

Of course we are to blame, but wasn't sin derived from the fall of man? Hence, sin is satan. Correct?

[~candice~]

I think all too often we blame Satan for our sin and temptation, when infact, it is usually just us!

Of course we are to blame, but wasn't sin derived from the fall of man? Hence, sin is satan. Correct?

Sin is not Satan. Sin is man falling short of the perfect standard required by God; missing the mark.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.