just a question

[Gold David]

Cause we are not God. Jesus is both God & Human

And after the fall ...the first Adam needed the Last Adam

[~Shalhevet~]

But the fall happened because of satan, right? If satan had not been present, that would have never happened?

[~candice~]

But the fall happened because of satan, right? If satan had not been present, that would have never happened?

This is one of those million dollar questions .

The fall happened because Adam utilised his free will. The fall happened because God orchestrated it to happen as part of His plan for the redemption of man.

This is the heart of the predestination v's free will debate (I think there are only 691 threads on this topic on worthy ).

Have a think about this...

John 15:13 (NASB)

" Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

God WANTS to send His Son to die for us, as the ultimate expression of love.

John 3:16 (NASB)

16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life

[~Shalhevet~]

Thanks Andy.

[Guest HIS girl]

~andy~'

Sin is not Satan. Sin is man falling short of the perfect standard required by God; missing the mark.

so andy, do you think that by Adam and Eve partaking of the "lie" that satan put forward wasn't the introduction of sin in the Garden of Eden?

By partaking of the "lie" and eating the fruit, they then partook of the "originator" of sin so to speak.

Jesus says this - "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8 v 44 NKJ

I'm just wondering if the freewill God gave mankind before the Fall via satan was tainted by sin in any way.

I am more inclined to think that sin was introduced via satan because he is the father of lies and the originator of it. The acceptance of satan's lie by Eve and Adam "opened" the door to sin.

It doesn't mention anything in Genesis of Adam and Eve contemplating eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before satan seduced Eve with the lie. In fact it doesn't mention Adam and Eve using their freewill in disobedience to God at all prior to the Fall.

[Guest Ken Rank]

I'm just wondering if the freewill God gave mankind before the Fall via satan was tainted by sin in any way

Technically, it no more says satan was in the garden as it says they ate an apple. But I do agree, it was probably satan. But free will is not "via satan." If satan had not been in the garden, they could still have chosen to eat. I don't believe they would have which is the point of that account because Adam and Eve did not understand the difference between right and wrong (good and evil) "until" they were deceived and their eyes were open to their nakedness.

By the way, while I believe they really became aware of their physical nakedness, the Hebrew word for this is often translated (and properly so) as shame.

But the fault lies with Adam. He was given a direct command and he broke it. Whether or not he relayed that command to Eve is irrelevant, Adam was given a direct command from God and chose to stand against it.

Peace.

Ken

Edited October 1, 2009 by Ken Rank

[Guest HIS girl]

I'm just wondering if the freewill God gave mankind before the Fall via satan was tainted by sin in any way

Technically, it no more says satan was in the garden as it says they ate an apple. But I do agree, it was probably satan. But free will is not "via satan." If satan had not been in the garden, they could still have chosen to eat. I don't believe they would have which is the point of that account because Adam and Eve did not understand the difference between right and wrong (good and evil) "until" they were deceived and their eyes were open to their nakedness.

By the way, while I believe they really became aware of their physical nakedness, the Hebrew word for this is often translated (and properly so) as shame.

But the fault lies with Adam. He was given a direct command and he broke it. Whether or not he relayed that command to Eve is irrelevant, Adam was given a direct command from God and chose to stand against it.

Peace.

Ken

Yes - and they were deceived not by God but BY satan.

And who was the "instigator" of the command being broken? Again satan - satan set it up and Eve/Adam fell for it.

I didn't say freewill is via satan - I said that sin was via satan.

Freewill doesn't necessarily equate with disobedience - it is all about choices.

TODAY, because of sin born out of the Garden via events which I stated, freewill includes 'sinful"freewil. See what I'm saying?

Sin was "born" out of accepting the lie of satan and the action of eating the fruit. It triggered sin into action so to speak.

The serpent is the devil IMO. He was active in the origins of sin and man's involvement in sin.

When Jesus talks about the father of lies being the devil, Jesus said he was a murderer from the beginning- "the beginning" connects with Genesis/Eden.

Jesus also connects "beginning" with Genesis when He says " Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female".(Adam/Eve) Matthew 19 v 4 NKJ

[~candice~]

~andy~'

Sin is not Satan. Sin is man falling short of the perfect standard required by God; missing the mark.

so andy, do you think that by Adam and Eve partaking of the "lie" that satan put forward wasn't the introduction of sin in the Garden of Eden?

By partaking of the "lie" and eating the fruit, they then partook of the "originator" of sin so to speak.

Jesus says this - "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." John 8 v 44 NKJ

I'm just wondering if the freewill God gave mankind before the Fall via satan was tainted by sin in any way.

I am more inclined to think that sin was introduced via satan because he is the father of lies and the originator of it. The acceptance of satan's lie by Eve and Adam "opened" the door to sin.

It doesn't mention anything in Genesis of Adam and Eve contemplating eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before satan seduced Eve with the lie. In fact it doesn't mention Adam and Eve using their freewill in disobedience to God at all prior to the Fall.

This is one of those things we might never get a good grip on, because little is written in the bible. Adam and Eve had free will in the garden. Did they have temptation except for the serpent? I don't know, but they were walking with God in the garden, and it's hard to be tempted while doing that . The first sin was that of Eve, the second sin (and the one which we inherit) was that of Adam.

My suspicion (only suspicion, not biblical fact) is that God introduced the serpent into the Garden to bring about the fall of man, fully knowing the consequences and implication, and allowed the exercise of man's free will in the presence of temptation to result in the fall.

Sin is not Satan, as asecretchord asked, but is it of Satan, the father of all lies.

[~candice~]

But the fault lies with Adam. He was given a direct command and he broke it. Whether or not he relayed that command to Eve is irrelevant, Adam was given a direct command from God and chose to stand against it.

Peace.

Ken

Eve knew it was wrong. When the serpent began to question her, she initially responded that they were not to eat of the fruit of that tree.

Genesis 3 (NASB)

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

2The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;

3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"

[Guest HIS girl]

~andy~'

My suspicion (only suspicion, not biblical fact) is that God introduced the serpent into the Garden to bring about the fall of man, fully knowing the consequences and implication, and allowed the exercise of man's free will in the presence of temptation to result in the fall.

And doesn't the Bible say that God does not tempt? - James 1 v 13: Let no one say when he is tempted. "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. NKJV

We don't see anywhere in Genesis prior to the Fall that Adam and Eve were tempted to eat of the fruit. They were in the Garden as well as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. No problem. Only when satan entered the scene do we see temptation.