can salvation be lost?

[Smalcald]

What does backsliding mean? I have heard it used by I think Parker earlier and by other Christians. We don't use that term and it is confusing to me.

I think Shiloh you would say a person who intentionally lives in sin who rejects the faith and does not even try to struggle against sin, was never saved in the first place regardless of what they may have said or prayed or whatever? Is this a person who has "backslid"?

The term was first used by God when describing Israel in OT, but i have to do a search to find it. It is also the same as the church of Laodice in Rev 3:15 who Jesus says had left their first love.

A Christian is not to live in fear of losing their salvation as long as they do not willfully turn away from the Lord in sin. We are counseled by Paul to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith", and this is known by the love in our heart for Jesus.

But it is foolish to think we can live for ourself and still love Jesus.

How about if we plan it? What I mean is say we rely on planned repentance as a way to intentionally live in sin now with the idea that you can always repent at some later date, particularly given that I know I am saved? A very common example of this is adultery. Let us say someone today right now on this very board is having an affair. They of course know it is wrong, but they plan on getting a divorce and getting re-married to their lover. At that point they will repent, and that is actually what is in the back of their mind, how could it not be? Adultery is a very planned sin, it is not like rage or some sort of addiction, adultery takes planning, it takes long term deceit, so there is no doubt that any instructed Christian would know it is a sin, and further have the ability to stop at some point, but they make an informed decision to not stop to intentionally deny God in that case; but they would also know we all sin and fall short and I can repent after I divorce and get married.

This is something I have seen several times over the years.

Hi Smd, planned repentance is not true repentance but a heart that is still living for itself and not God.

I agree that often adultery is planned as in lusted for before actually taking the steps of self deception that excuse what is known as wrong, but have you considered prov 7:7-23 where the simple youth devoid of understanding wanders near the door of the crafty and adulterous women, who with enticing speech and flattering lips seduces him?

Sometimes sin is committed out of stupidity or under strong temptation, like the alcoholic who has not had sufficient time to build up resistance to conquer being tempted. God does not excuse these sins but He does chastise and work with willing individuals who truly repent and change their ways.

Oh I agree true repentance is always accepted and we are always forgiven.

It is a harder case of course to make for a Christian who has an ongoing affair, I mean this certainly is different from a young guy who is tempted by lust for a one time fornication. The affair takes planning, ongoing deciet and it happens over time.

But anyway I agree it is foolish to think we can live for our own life and love Christ.

But really it comes back to faith does it not. If we really had faith in Christ we would also understand what rejecting Him meant, and would understand how hell is real, how serious it is to play around with sin. Almost treating our faith like a game, but then if it is a game we really don't believe any of it anyway, not really. True faith, perfect faith would lead one to true holiness.

[JIME]

I believe your Salvation can not be lost. Once you accept Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, the scripture tells us that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13-14 (AMP)

In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit. That [spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it

[JCISGD]

I believe your Salvation can not be lost. Once you accept Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, the scripture tells us that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13-14 (AMP)

In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit. That [spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I believe your Salvation can not be lost. Once you accept Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, the scripture tells us that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13-14 (AMP)

In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit. That [spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it—to the praise of His glory.

Eph 1:13-14 (NASB)

In Him , you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed , you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

JIME we got a few dilemmas here:

1.) Not everyone who thinks they are saved are. Just because someone thinks they are saved does not mean so. Just because someone responded to an unbibical alter call does not make one saved. Jesus nor his disciples ever told someone to pray a sinners prayer. Jesus said if any man wants to follow me he must do..any by their fruits you will know them. Most JW's and LDS think they are saved too and we know based on scripture not everyone that says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. The bibles says the many will seek to enter but only a few make it and says we must strive to enter the kingdom. The guy on news that walked in the fitness gym and murdered several people wrote a note stating that he believed in his eternal security, because his Pastor told him this based on the fact that he accepted Christ in his life in the past. Do you think this guys is enjoying his eternal security right now?

2.) God promised those he brought out of Egypt they would enter the promise land too, but as you know only a few actually entered the promise land. Did God lie or did God break his covenant? Or did man break Gods covenant? It takes two parties to establish a covenant.

I do believe that you can know that your saved and not live in fear that you maybe lost. This assurance comes from God and his Spirit that dwells in you. It's the Peace and Assurance that only comes from God. You don't need man to confirm it. On the other hand if your living in rebellion and sin then you will not feel this peace or assurance. It may be God dealing with you and convicting you to repent, but over time your conscience learns to ignore God and the soon the assurance and peace is gone. Your heart and faith become hardened toward God and repenting and turning to God becomes much harder to do.

[JIME]

I believe your Salvation can not be lost. Once you accept Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, the scripture tells us that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13-14 (AMP)

In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit. That [spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it

[OneLight]

I believe your Salvation can not be lost. Once you accept Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, the scripture tells us that we are sealed until the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13-14 (AMP)

In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit. That [spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it

[kross]

I have been in many of these discussions. I think the dividing line comes at this one point;

There are those who believe they had to do something to get saved and to stay saved. They use the scriptures that exhort us to better works and persistance to say that these scriptures are warnings of consequences if we fail to do so.

There are those who feel they did nothing to get saved. That GOD chose them for salvation.They use the scriptures that tell us we are indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT and seal untill the day of redemption, predestined by GOD to be conformed to the likeness of HIS son from the foundations of the Earth. Thus, we might stumble or fail, but GOD will never leave us and nothing can separate us from HIS love in JESUS.

So, the interpretation of the scriptures really comes from these diametrically opposed points of veiw;

Either I am the author and finisher of my faith, and as such I must do works and walk acording to that faith.

OR

I am saved by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT and though I may not walk perfectly in this world, my salvation is based in my relationship with GOD through JESUS, and thus, whatever that relationship is, it is eternal and can not be severed.

[OneLight]

I have been in many of these discussions. I think the dividing line comes at this one point;

There are those who believe they had to do something to get saved and to stay saved. They use the scriptures that exhort us to better works and persistance to say that these scriptures are warnings of consequences if we fail to do so.

There are those who feel they did nothing to get saved. That GOD chose them for salvation.They use the scriptures that tell us we are indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT and seal untill the day of redemption, predestined by GOD to be conformed to the likeness of HIS son from the foundations of the Earth. Thus, we might stumble or fail, but GOD will never leave us and nothing can separate us from HIS love in JESUS.

So, the interpretation of the scriptures really comes from these diametrically opposed points of veiw;

Either I am the author and finisher of my faith, and as such I must do works and walk acording to that faith.

OR

I am saved by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT and though I may not walk perfectly in this world, my salvation is based in my relationship with GOD through JESUS, and thus, whatever that relationship is, it is eternal and can not be severed.

I disagree in part. You left out those who once were in Christ, but for some reason, decided in their heart that there is no God. This is a category of people that we are discussing, not how one ends up in salvation, but if salvation can be lost or rejected. Just because you do not believe there are those in this condition does not mean they are not out there. There is a difference between those who want to remain in Him and those who do not, and you refuse to believe that there are people like that. It is so easy to say that they were never saved in the first place, for it is easy to live with this idea. To believe that we still have free will (which I believe you do not believe in free will either) places our action in our own hands. God, nowhere in scripture, made anyone do anything against their own will. He did, does and will continue to judge people for their actions and beliefs of their heart.

[Guest shiloh357]

What does backsliding mean? I have heard it used by I think Parker earlier and by other Christians. We don't use that term and it is confusing to me.

I think Shiloh you would say a person who intentionally lives in sin who rejects the faith and does not even try to struggle against sin, was never saved in the first place regardless of what they may have said or prayed or whatever? Is this a person who has "backslid"?

Backsliding is an OT term. It is never used in the NT. The person you describe would not be backslidden, as they had nothing to be slide back from. The term "backsliding" refers to Jerusalem's impenitence in Jer. 8:5.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh i do agree that eternal security is promised to those who are truly saved, but it is not eternal security that is being challenged but the belief that just because a person makes a profession of faith that they are saved reguardless of their lifestyle and heart towards God.

Like I said, the litmus test of a person truly born again is that they have a new heart and have undergone an inward transformation. REAL Christians are not out living in sin. They are not looking for ways to sin.

The problem is that people in their zeal to disprove a myth called OSAS refuse to accept the fact that there are people (probably more than we are generally aware of) who simply assent to the Christian faith but have never received Christ. They are sitting in pews, singing choirs, teaching Sunday School, but do not know Christ. You can be VERY religious without Jesus. You can know all the right things to say and do, and you can participate in the outward Christian community and yet die and go to Hell.

It would go a long way in explaining the immorality we see in various denominations, even among those who are supposed to be leaders. I think we would be very shocked if we able just for 1 minute to see what God sees regarding who is or is not saved.

In that sense the label OSAS is misleading and more accuratley called OTSBNS Only Think Saved But Not Saved.

No, the label is misleading because it is not a true doctrine. OTSBNS is just another futile attempt at the same thing.

The problem is that carnal reasoning simply cannot truly accept that salvation is not based on our personal merit. Even now, despite the Bible's unambiguous teachings, human pride still wants to make salvation a reward that only the best deserve to receive.

Salvation is a free gift. That means that it is not based on what you do or don't do. Salvation is more than just that, though. Salvation is a person. Jesus is our eternal life, and He comes to live in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. He changes us and transforms us by the Holy Spirit. If that change has not taken place, salvation did not occur. I don't care how loud someone yells that they are saved, if they are living sin, they were most likely never saved to start with.

Yet Jesus threatens to "spue out of His mouth" the Laocediceans who had "left their first love, are you saying they were never saved in the first place or that Jesus was not warning them of losing their salvation?

It was the Church at Ephesus that left their first love.

I don't think Jesus was telling them either that they were not saved or that they were losing their salvation. Rather, He was warning them that they were disqualifying themselves for service. Jesus warned them that they had gotten too wrapped up in worldly affairs. Their works were lukewarm. It does not indicate that they were living in sin per se, but they were not living fully committed lives for Christ.

Jesus ends his criticisms of Laodecia by reminding them that He chastens those whom He loves Rev. 3:19. It was a rebuke, and not revocation of their salvation.