can salvation be lost?

[Guest shiloh357]

no sense in arguing about scripture. if people do not accept it, then that is their own loss. you can walk away from your salvation anytime you please, it would never be God's fault or anything concerning God. A christian will never be a robot and always will have a free will. if anyone would be interested to look on jimmy swaggart's or his wife's frances and friends site they explain that and much more of other false doctrines and things going on in most of the churches and ministries today. i am not here to argue. you can google either one in if you want.

sincerely, answered prayer aka miracle

'

But why would someone who has had a relationship with Christ walk away from their Salvation? What would motivate someone to do this? Why doesn't the Bible say anything about someone being able to walk away from Salvation?

1"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

What do you think this is saying?

I find quite a bit of scriptural support for people who "believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away".

Now maybe that means as Shiloh would argue that those who believed for a while were never saved, even though they believed for a while. I am not totally against that, it is a cleaner and more appealing idea, but I am still not sure scripture backs it up, they believed then they fell away.

The point of that parable per Jesus' explanation has nothing to do with salvation. Jesus is talking about how people receive the Word of God.

[Smalcald]

Of course it has to do with salvation; salvation is all about receiving and believing the Word of God.

As Christ said, some will "believe for a while".

[EricH]

Of course it has to do with salvation; salvation is all about receiving and believing the Word of God.

As Christ said, some will "believe for a while".

Jesus was not speaking of salvation in particular. He was speaking or being receptive to the word of God in general. It would noto be prudent to develope a theology of salvation from this passage.

[Smalcald]

Okay, I will be fine just leaving it as Jesus left it.

The seed is the word of God. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

That is really clear.

I guess it depends on how one views the Word of God. If the Word of God is not important to salvation or not.

[Rhonda Lou]

Okay, I will be fine just leaving it as Jesus left it.

The seed is the word of God. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

That is really clear.

I guess it depends on how one views the Word of God. If the Word of God is not important to salvation or not.

Maybe, for a deeper understanding, one should see this parable in Matthew13:19-23. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, AND DOES NOT UNDERSTAND IT, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. Now the seed is the Word of God. The word of God is not salvation -- believing the word of God, not only in thought and word, but also in deed, is salvation. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God -- but faith is not the Word of God -- the Word of God is the Word of God. James 2:19 says that even demons believe that God is God (through the Word), but they fear and tremble -- they know and believe the word of God, but are unsaved. At any rate, getting back to Matthew:

Those in verse 19 heard, but did not understand the Word of God. They were not saved. Verse 20: "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles. I liken this to the insurance policy holders: those who hear that Jesus died for their sins so that they can go to heaven and think they can go out and sin because heaven is still secured. Sounds great -- isn't salvation, but sounds great. One has to not only believe, but be changed by the power of the Holy Spirit. The whole point of salvation is to change NOW, not in eternity. So, these people get persecuted or feel tribulation -- the perverbial "catch" comes -- it is not fun in the sun, but involves pain -- they stumble. Again, they did not understand the whole truth, and are unsaved.

Verae 22 says, Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. This person never even got as far as believing the word, even intellectually -- he just HEARD it, but was more interested in the cares of this world. He would be like the rich young ruler who heard Jesus say to give away his possessions. He did not want to do that, and walked away from Christ. This person has never been saved either.

The definition of a believer comes in verse 23: "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who HEARS the word and UNDERSTANDS it, who BEARS FRUIT and PRODUCES a hundredfold, some sixty, some 30." Hearing the word is not enough, understanding the word is not enough, even believing the word is not enough -- UNLESS one bears fruit with it -- meaning forsaking every other god, and forsaking self, and letting Christ live through you because the fruit a Christian bears is the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) -- it is Christ living through us (Galatians 2:20). Anything short of a willingness to let Him love through us -- to let Him change us -- anything short of that is not biblical faith. Biblical faith ALWAYS puts one's money where one's mouth is. And anybody risking self so God can live through him/her at all costs is truly saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and will never walk away from God. God won't allow it. Nor would the believer be interested in doing it.

[Smalcald]

I certainly agree on versus 19, 22 and 23.

On verse 20 though it does say that they endure for a while and receive the Word with joy.

Now I think one way to look at it would indeed be that even if you receive the Word of God with Joy and have some faith for some period of time, you are not necessarily truly saved.

I think the last thing these lost souls would need to hear would be a sermon on eternal security. This is the problem in my opinion we spend quite a bit of time assuring people who are not saved that they are indeed saved and no one can pluck them out from the hand of God, which of course IS true for those with true faith. So how do people know if they are saved and have faith? We at that point get to your final points about how we lead our lives and how we live in holiness or choose to live in sin.

I must say I am not tied into knots over this debate, I could go either way. We still have to deal with the versus in Hebrews though.

But I just have such a different view of how we can come to faith than most on this board that I think that often causes some confusion for me and others.

[Rhonda Lou]

I certainly agree on versus 19, 22 and 23.

On verse 20 though it does say that they endure for a while and receive the Word with joy.

Now I think one way to look at it would indeed be that even if you receive the Word of God with Joy and have some faith for some period of time, you are not necessarily truly saved.

I think the last thing these lost souls would need to hear would be a sermon on eternal security. This is the problem in my opinion we spend quite a bit of time assuring people who are not saved that they are indeed saved and no one can pluck them out from the hand of God, which of course IS true for those with true faith. So how do people know if they are saved and have faith? We at that point get to your final points about how we lead our lives and how we live in holiness or choose to live in sin.

I must say I am not tied into knots over this debate, I could go either way. We still have to deal with the versus in Hebrews though.

But I just have such a different view of how we can come to faith than most on this board that I think that often causes some confusion for me and others.

I agree with you that the Christian community spends too much time assuring people they are saved, without knowing for sure whether or not they are. For myself, I do not tell othere that they are saved, or that they are NOT saved -- that's God's job, meaning only HE knows what is in the other person's heart or what He put there. I believe all we can say is, "The Bible says a true Christian forsakes the love of sinning and self, turns in dependence upon God to save him/her from sin, death, and the power of sin, and allows God to change them. The first step is belief in Jesus' atoning death and resurrection, but again, it is a belief backed by true repentance and a willingness to change. I can tell others that, but it is up to each individual and God to know the motives of the one who is wondering. I truly believe that if the person IS saved, the Holy Spirit will confirm the salvation, and give the assurance that I can not hope to give.

As to the Hebrews passages, I still believe that it is possible to partake of the Holy Spirit by going to church one's whole life, hearing sermons, etc, and not be saved. Judas was around Jesus 3 1/2 years, saw miracles, even did some preaching with the 12, but was never changed/saved. The Pharisees practically LIVED at church (in synagogue) and missed the whole point of salvation. I went to church 48 years before becoming a Christian. It is possible to be a regular churchgoer, active on every church committee, and not be saved. It takes repentance as an act of faith. It takes true submission to Christ -- confessing Him as Lord. Once I was saved, the doubts caused by decades of trying to "prove" I was saved, and wondering if I loved God enough to be saved, were gone, and I just KNEW -- God saved me. My assurance lies in the fact that it does not depend on me -- my salvation depends on God and He is faithful to keep what I've entrusted to Him -- my soul. My assurance comes when I give in to the flesh (sin) and feel horrible about it, and rush to be that open cleansed vessel through which Christ can work -- rather than rationalize that all men sin and that is why we need a Savior, and God knew what I would do and loves me anyway. I'm not saying any of that is wrong -- but to rationalize that as a way of continuing in sin -- that is not true salvation. I can't explain it. I just knew that once I repented -- I mean truly repented -- turned away from the love of sinning and turned toward Christ for salvation -- then I knew I was saved, and all of the doubts are gone. Those in Hebrews were in danger of losing the CONFIDENCE of their salvation because of willful sinning, or of having all of the information about the Holy Spirit through seeing Him at work through others in church - and yet not turning to Christ for salvation -- even if persecuted. Hebrew 11 speaks of biblical faith -- and lists people who acted on faith. That is what the author is saying: Don't just know the right thing, do it, and in that way you will be confident of your salvation.

I understand the danger of reassuring everybody they are saved regardless of the fruit in their lives, and I believe that most people who believe salvation can be lost have as their main concern that if it is that easy, then people will go out and sin all of the time believing they'll go to heaven regardless of what type of life they lived here and now. But, in Romans 6, Paul says, "Many of you say, why can't we go on sinning because that enhances God's grace." Paul's answer was, "You died to sin, were buried with Christ and have risen again; how can you go on sinning?" The Galatians went the opposite way and got entangled in legalism (Galatians 3). Paul's response to them was exactly the same: "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ Jesus lives in me." Paul did not cater to fears of what a salvation guaranteed by the Holy Spirit in a person might do to one who would take liberties with the salvation or to one who would try to keep the salvation by works after being saved. To both extremes in the faith, he gave the same exact answer, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirt -- those who are Christians have been crucified with Christ, were buried with Him, and risen again to newness of life. They wouldn't seek sin. They wouldn't save themselves through works. They depend on God, cooperating with Him to grow faster in the faith and out of love for Him. I believe that his answer is the same answer we should give. To cave into fears of what might happen if we are misunderstood is to not tell the gospel truth that CHRIST IN US is our hope of glory forever more. Does that make any sense?

[Smalcald]

Yes it does make sense.

I wonder this though, when you were in Church 48 years before having true faith, during that time, was God working in your life to come to salvation? I would say that God was in your life guiding you the whole time, to get you to that point. Thus salvation is about giving up our resistance; not about asserting something that we do

You make good points though about how our works give us the confidence to know who we are and who we belong to, but that they are not a burden for us to count and fret over as they cannot save us anyway.

Part of my problem with this debate is that the two sides are really saying the same thing in many ways.

[Guest shiloh357]

Okay, I will be fine just leaving it as Jesus left it.

The seed is the word of God. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

That is really clear.

I guess it depends on how one views the Word of God. If the Word of God is not important to salvation or not.

The point is that Jesus was making a specific reference to the Gospel. The Gospel is just one part of the Word of God. Jesus is teaching a principle relative to how we should receive the Word of God. He is not calling three of the four "unbelievers" or "unsaved." Even we Christians can be like the stony ground when the Word of God exposes something in us that we need to change.

[Rhonda Lou]

Yes it does make sense.

I wonder this though, when you were in Church 48 years before having true faith, during that time, was God working in your life to come to salvation? I would say that God was in your life guiding you the whole time, to get you to that point. Thus salvation is about giving up our resistance; not about asserting something that we do

You make good points though about how our works give us the confidence to know who we are and who we belong to, but that they are not a burden for us to count and fret over as they cannot save us anyway.

Part of my problem with this debate is that the two sides are really saying the same thing in many ways.

Yes, God was working in my life to save me. Nobody ever saves themselves -- we come to salvation only through God. The Holy Spirit works outside of us, and He kept drawing me in until I was saved, and now He indwells me. There are steps I can measure in my coming to God, and at times I just about grasped it. I believe some of the marks of a true Christian are having the mind of Christ and ability to really understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 1-2), loving God, something I never did before salvation. I actually at times HATED Him for being such a harsh taskmaster, and for MAKING us love Him. But now I love Him completely, and my understanding about things I even THOUGHT I knew before is so much deeper!! That is why I say one can believe without being saved. My obedience level has gone up also, yet is somehow easier than it used to be. Those are works GOD does in and through us, and until we are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we don't know whether or not we are saved. But my persistence to "keep going till I get it right" was all part of the work of the Holy Spirit's persistence to keep coming after me until I get it right.

You are correct -- both sides are saying the same thing. It is hard to pin down something intangible (spiritual) when we are all so used to the practical -- and would rather be told what to do or how to behave than actually trust God to live through us. The thing is, fear of losing salvation, and joy in keeping it, are both marked outwardly by obedience to God's word -- so they look the same. It is all in the motivation. I think that is the distinction in this debate. Releasing control and letting God work -- or keeping control and trying to do things in our own power. Once we release it to God, we know that He is able to keep it.