can salvation be lost?

[Guest shiloh357]

At the same time, those who believe in unconditional eternal security will provide a lot of scriptures they claim support their position. One of their favorites is how no man can pluck you out of God's hand, but it doesn't say you can't walk away of your own free will.

A true Christian won't. Religionists will, but that is becauase they had no root to begin with.

The idea you can get saved, and live in a constant state of sin makes no sense.

And no one teaches that.

[Smalcald]

I think it may come down once again to how we look at faith.

The Holy Spirit draws people for a long time, our faith is simply giving up resistance to the Gospel, not a pro-active decision generated by our own goodness. So yes a person may not be saved yet have a longing for salvation, this person may finish the race, he might not. To me it makes no difference what we call this person. Some would say he was saved and then turned away if he does not finish, others would say he was never "really" saved and did not finish, the fact is we finish or not, the proof is in the pudding and in our lives.

[Rhonda Lou]

I think it may come down once again to how we look at faith.

The Holy Spirit draws people for a long time, our faith is simply giving up resistance to the Gospel, not a pro-active decision generated by our own goodness. So yes a person may not be saved yet have a longing for salvation, this person may finish the race, he might not. To me it makes no difference what we call this person. Some would say he was saved and then turned away if he does not finish, others would say he was never "really" saved and did not finish, the fact is we finish or not, the proof is in the pudding and in our lives.

I agree up to a point. Jesus said: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:46) Anybody who LONGS to be saved is being drawn by the Father, and Jesus promises to raise anybody being drawn by the Father. He reiterates this in verse 65: "And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by my Father."" So anybody who longs for Jesus WILL finish the race. You are correct that some would say the person was never saved, and others would say that he was saved and lost his salvation. I don't believe that it is for us to say who is saved, or who never was saved. However, the reason I stress that salvation is forever is because it depends on God, and to say that the God who said that He gives us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13-14) -- the God who said that salvation is incorruptible, undefiled, and cannot fade away (1 Peter 1:3-5) -- the God who said that Christ in us is our hope of glory (Colossians 1:27) could never fall back on His word. People say that He would never forsake us, but we could forsake Him. The problem with that is that He is much bigger than we are and has promised to take us home with Him.

I know, I've said this before, so I'm shutting up now. I'm not defending my position so much as defending God -- and He can take care of Himself. In practical terms, if I was talking to an individual who was wondering if they were saved or not, I would just point out what Scriptures says a saved person looks like. In terms of big theological debate, I'll defend God anyway, and say we can't lose our salvation -- IF we truly have it. In terms of living in sin, I would just quiet the fears of those who say that believing salvation cannot be lost is a recipe for disaster and loose morals by stating that it is predicated (picked that up from Shiloh357) -- on the fact that true salvation is God in us -- and the God in us would never condone sin. It is impossible for the truly saved to "live" in sin. Our flesh visits it from time to time, and we confess and repent of it -- but it is impossible for a true Christian to LIVE in sin. I'll leave it at that.

[Rhonda Lou]

I have alwyas believed that salvation could not be lost and i have seen great scripture supporting both that it can and cannot be lost.

what do others think and what scripture leads you to think this?

I do believe that you can lose your salvation. There are numerous places in the New Testament where it says certain behaviors will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven. Let's take being a drunkard for instance. The Bible states no drunkard shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, yet there are many people who get saved who become drunkards. Hebrews tells us that if we commit wilful sin after getting saved, there remains no more sacrifice for those sins. Paul speaks of keeping his body in subjection so he won't be a castaway. There is also a reference in Revelation of those who overcome not having their name blotted out of the book of life. In the Old Testament, God speaks of blotting out the name of those who worshipped the golden calf from the book of life. There are a lot of scriptures that seem to indicate you can lose your salvation.

At the same time, those who believe in unconditional eternal security will provide a lot of scriptures they claim support their position. One of their favorites is how no man can pluck you out of God's hand, but it doesn't say you can't walk away of your own free will. The reason this comes up as often as it does is because people take sides. They belong to churches that teach one way or the other, have become indoctrinated, and won't be moved. I lean towards the idea you can lose your salvation, but if someone could give me a reasonable explaination as to how you can have one scripture telling you being a fornicator will keep you out of heaven, and at the same time explain how Christians who continue in fornication are eternally secure, I would be willing to give them consideration. If they can give a reasonable explaination how you have scriptures telling how it is those who finish the race who receive the prize, not just those who enter it, and why revelation continues to speak of the need to be an overcomer, I am open.

At this point, the only way I can see eternal security working is if you are a full blown Calvanist. I can see how you can believe that you are predestined saved before you were created. If that is the case, then if it is your nature to live right you will, and since you were created to be saved, that cannot change. I am not convinced of predestination, but it does make logical sense, and you can reconcile this doctrine with scripture. The idea you can get saved, and live in a constant state of sin makes no sense.

The verse you cite for those who believe in eternal security is John 10:28-30: "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one." But, those are not the particular verses I use. There are many, but I'll cite these:

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were SEALED for the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY." (Colossians 1:27)

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit of life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:9-11)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has BEGOTTEN us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and THAT DOES NOT FADE AWAY, reserved in heaven for you, who are KEPT BY THE POWER of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

God, who "begot" (saved) you, and keeps you (sanctifies you; see 2 Corinthians 3:18), will not take away the promised Holy Spirit from inside you, who is the guarantee of everlasting life. Those verses supercede any other verses because they are promises directly from God.

Now, you mention that there are warnings in the Bible. The ones you mention are found in Ephesians 5: "For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words for because of these things (THINGS: sins, not people) the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you WERE ONCE darkness, but now you are light in the Lord." (Ephesians 5:5-8) Here, and in the parallel passage in Colossians 3:5-7, the "sons of disobedience" are not "former Christians" -- they are people of the world. Paul says in both cases, "this is what you WERE" - not what you ARE or WILL BE. All people before salvation -- all "sons of disobedience" -- suffer the wrath of God, but those who WERE "sons of disobedience" are not after salvation.

As for Hebrews 10, I spent years in church, hearing the Word of God, receiving intellectual knowledge, partaking of the Holy Spirit in seeing God at work in other people's lives, before I was actually saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees had FULL knowledge of Christ, but were not saved. Judas walked with Jesus for 3 1/2 years -- but was never saved. Those in Matthew 7:21-24 counted on theor own works to save them -- they thought they knew the truth -- but Jesus said, "I don't know you." They were all surprised because they THOUGHT they were saved -- and weren't. You asked how anybody could be saved and continue in sin. They can't. It is impossible because if they were saved, the Holy Spirit would be in them transforming them from glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3:18). But they may have been told they were saved because, intellectually they acknowledged they were a sinner in need of a Savior, and that Savior was Jesus. People wanting an insurance posicy to get to heaven after committing a life of sin, and swallowing the lie that Jesus died so they could sin and still go to heaven -- are not truly saved; they are mislead, and will be surprised at Judgment Day or the Rapture or whatever. Only a person who truly has repented -- forsaken the LOVE of sinning (we are still in the flesh and still give in to sin occasionally) -- only those who want to be changed here and now and not wait for heaven -- only those are truly saved, and those truly saved will never lose their salvation -- the Holy Spirit inside them is their guarantee.

[Rick-Parker]

At the same time, those who believe in unconditional eternal security will provide a lot of scriptures they claim support their position. One of their favorites is how no man can pluck you out of God's hand, but it doesn't say you can't walk away of your own free will. The reason this comes up as often as it does is because people take sides. They belong to churches that teach one way or the other, have become indoctrinated, and won't be moved. I lean towards the idea you can lose your salvation, but if someone could give me a reasonable explaination as to how you can have one scripture telling you being a fornicator will keep you out of heaven, and at the same time explain how Christians who continue in fornication are eternally secure, I would be willing to give them consideration. If they can give a reasonable explaination how you have scriptures telling how it is those who finish the race who receive the prize, not just those who enter it, and why revelation continues to speak of the need to be an overcomer, I am open.

I don't think that there is anyone here who supports unconditional eternal security. I may be wrong, though.

[Smalcald]

I thought the point of eternal security was that it WAS unconditional?

If it is conditional if sin could stop it, how is it eternal security?

[Ovedya]

I thought the point of eternal security was that it WAS unconditional?

If it is conditional if sin could stop it, how is it eternal security?

Philosophically the power of sin would have to be greater than the power of God's very life (Which is the essence of our eternal salvation), wouldn't it?

[Smalcald]

I thought the point of eternal security was that it WAS unconditional?

If it is conditional if sin could stop it, how is it eternal security?

Philosophically the power of sin would have to be greater than the power of God's very life (Which is the essence of our eternal salvation), wouldn't it?

Exactly so the entire point of eternal security is that it IS unconditional, it is not worth very much if it is not.

[P_Joseph]

I thought the point of eternal security was that it WAS unconditional?

If it is conditional if sin could stop it, how is it eternal security?

Philosophically the power of sin would have to be greater than the power of God's very life (Which is the essence of our eternal salvation), wouldn't it?

Exactly so the entire point of eternal security is that it IS unconditional, it is not worth very much if it is not.

now that is a fact!

[Rick-Parker]

I thought the point of eternal security was that it WAS unconditional?

If it is conditional if sin could stop it, how is it eternal security?

Philosophically the power of sin would have to be greater than the power of God's very life (Which is the essence of our eternal salvation), wouldn't it?

Exactly so the entire point of eternal security is that it IS unconditional, it is not worth very much if it is not.

now that is a fact!

Sorry, but you're wrong. What is conditional is whether you are really, sincerely, heart, mind and soul saved. If you are thus saved, you will not, as you all seem to insist, continue to live in sin without regard to the Cross. If you are not reborn, a new person, then there is no salvation, eternal or otherwise. Come on you guys, open your eyes and minds and see - yea understand - what we have been saying over and over and over about this. One more time - salvation is unconditional once one is really saved.