can salvation be lost?

[Botz]

Second, in the story of the Prodigal, was there ever any point at which the son became genetically disassociated from his father, despite his fall to sin?

In answer to your second question, I don't believe the L-rd was teaching about genetic association, but rather the nature of forgiveness. The parable was one that demonstrated the unequivocal love of the Father towards a son...if however a messanger had come and told the Father that his son had died of starvation in a pig-stye in some foreign land, I don't think the emphasis would have been quite the same.

I presume you are suggesting that because we are 'born of the spirit' and are therefore the 'children' of the L-rd, then there is no way that we can ever not be His sons and daughter's, because we have an unbreakable relationship no matter what happens, or what we do....thus we can't be 'unborn again'?

[Guest shiloh357]

I will offer an explanation of some of these passages, as I don't have time to respond to all of them:

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

The issue here is not salvation because salvation is not a prize we win; it is a free gift we receive. Paul is talking about disciplining himself in order not to be disqualified from the "race" or in other words, he does not want to be disqualified from service. The issue is that Paul wants his life to be a reflection of what he is preaching. Paul uses an atheletic event as a metaphor for the Christian life. He sees it as a race where our reward for service is an imperishable crown. This is our reward beyond our salvation. Paul does not want to be disqualifed from receiving that imperishable crown.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

"Fall" is not equivalent to "losing salvation." I don't see where you think this refers to a person losing salvation.

Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. "fallen from grace" does not refer to losing salvation. If Paul thought that they were no longer saved, he would not call them "brothers" (1:11; 3:15; 4:12, 28; 5:11, 13; 6:1, 18).

The church at Galatia was infiltrated by a judaizing cult that taught that while one could be saved initially by Christ, unless they were circumcised according to the law of Moses, they could not receive full and final salvation.

The Word for fallen is not the word used for apostasy or "falling away." It is used to express the fact that the Galatians had lost their understanding of grace as a life principle. The phrase "estranged from Christ" refers to a break in fellowship. It is a strained relationship. Essentially, what Paul is referring to is not a loss of salvation, but rather a loss of the experience of God's grace.

You fall from the experience of grace when you seek to be justified or saved by your works. To teach that works are indespensable for remaining saved is "falling from grace" because you are relying on something else other than Christ for salvation.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb:

[Scare Bear]

Let me point out Romans 6:1-2 then: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why was this asked?

[Guest shiloh357]

Let me point out Romans 6:1-2 then: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why was this asked?

Paul was asking rhetorical questions. The questions actually answer themselves. Paul is pointing out that those who are truly saved will not continue to live in sin. Grace is not a license to sin; rather, it is the expectation of holy living. The litmus test of a true Christian is that they will not continue to live in sin. They are new creations, as Paul points out in 2 Cor. 5:17.

[exrockstar]

Let me point out Romans 6:1-2 then: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why was this asked?

Paul was asking rhetorical questions. The questions actually answer themselves. Paul is pointing out that those who are truly saved will not continue to live in sin. Grace is not a license to sin; rather, it is the expectation of holy living. The litmus test of a true Christian is that they will not continue to live in sin. They are new creations, as Paul points out in 2 Cor. 5:17.

someone did a good job planting that "litmus test" analogy in your studies. lol

[Scare Bear]

Paul was asking rhetorical questions. The questions actually answer themselves. Paul is pointing out that those who are truly saved will not continue to live in sin. Grace is not a license to sin; rather, it is the expectation of holy living. The litmus test of a true Christian is that they will not continue to live in sin. They are new creations, as Paul points out in 2 Cor. 5:17.

"How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

To me this phrase alone tells me that there is a possibility that even after one is saved they have a possibility of falling.

Why would James 5:16 tell us to confess our faults one to another if we no longer sin? I mean if you can't fall from grace then you are perfect and cannot sin anymore right? So why confess one's faults?

[Guest shiloh357]

How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?"

To me this phrase alone tells me that there is a possibility that even after one is saved they have a possibility of falling.

Again, it was rhetorical question. In other words, the question answers itself. Those who have died to sin don't live in it any longer. Hence, those who profess Christ, but live a life of habitual sin, have less than genuine profession of faith.

Why would James 5:16 tell us to confess our faults one to another if we no longer sin?

Who said that we no longer commit sin? We all sin from time to time, but that is not the same as living in habitual, continuous sin.

I mean if you can't fall from grace then you are perfect and cannot sin anymore right? So why confess one's faults?

You are forgetting something. The people who Paul said had "fallen from grace," were not people who were trying to live in sin.

The Galatians did not fall from grace because they were committing fornication, drunkeness, idolatry,etc. They fell from grace because they had replaced grace with the law as their hope of salvation.

If the grace of God is removed when you sin, then of what value is grace?? Grace is not necessary for the people who don't sin. Grace is for imperfect people who still sin and still need forgiveness.

You buy insurance for your car in case you have an accident. Of what value would the insurance be if it is canceled the minute you have a fender bender? In the same way, God's grace is not taken away when we fall in a moment of weakness. That is why we need grace.

[Guest shiloh357]

Let me point out Romans 6:1-2 then: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why was this asked?

Paul was asking rhetorical questions. The questions actually answer themselves. Paul is pointing out that those who are truly saved will not continue to live in sin. Grace is not a license to sin; rather, it is the expectation of holy living. The litmus test of a true Christian is that they will not continue to live in sin. They are new creations, as Paul points out in 2 Cor. 5:17.

someone did a good job planting that "litmus test" analogy in your studies. lol

If you are not a new creation, if you have not been transformed, you are not a Christian. Simple as that.

[exrockstar]

Let me point out Romans 6:1-2 then: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Why was this asked?

Paul was asking rhetorical questions. The questions actually answer themselves. Paul is pointing out that those who are truly saved will not continue to live in sin. Grace is not a license to sin; rather, it is the expectation of holy living. The litmus test of a true Christian is that they will not continue to live in sin. They are new creations, as Paul points out in 2 Cor. 5:17.

someone did a good job planting that "litmus test" analogy in your studies. lol

If you are not a new creation, if you have not been transformed, you are not a Christian. Simple as that.

transformed instantaneously?

Paul had personal struggles. A few times he did not listen to the Spirit telling him where to go. Dint forget his infamous "what i want to do i do....(Romans 7).

By your litmus results says he failed since he wasn't transformed.

what is the passing point of Christian being a "real Christian" when he goes from unfavorable to favorable to you?

Do have that all written out in a piece of paper somewhere?

[Guest shiloh357]

transformed instantaneously?

Paul had personal struggles. A few times he did not listen to the Spirit telling him where to go. Dint forget his infamous "what i want to do i do....(Romans 7).

By your litmus results says he failed since he wasn't transformed.

It was precisely because he had struggles and wrestled with his flesh that we know that Paul was transformed. If he had not been changed, he would not have cared, and there would not have been a struggle. Being transformed does not mean one becomes perfect, but that they have heart for God and seek to please Him. They are sincerely grieved when they do sin and struggle with their flesh as Paul notes in Ephesians 5. The spirit and flesh are in a war for ascendency in the heart of a true Christian.