Christian persecution in America

[Guest LadyC]

google it.

[artsylady]

Okay I started with "Statement by police" Rifqa Barry and got no hits. I then tried "Rifqa Bary "police statement" , got 163 hits, nothing related as they were all various collections of stories on one webpage.

But I am not surprised.

Regular police officers, firemen and ambulance people do not make media statements. Sargeants will make statements about what they've discovered in cases at times, or if arrests were made, but they will stick only to the facts. Example: "an arrest was made" or "we are working on the case". Nothing like "She told the officer that"......

In fact, I can't see teachers making statements either. I'm sure there had to have been a meeting at school where they were all told to say nothing to the media.

So are these some kind of statements made in court?

[Guest LadyC]

yeah, apparently they were made in court. and the flordia court ruled that there was no credible threat to the girl's life.

now, did you go read the letter/article/whatever it was by the christian attorney who was on the case in the beginning? do you think he's lying?

oh, and the orlando sentinel and a couple of other florida newspapers online have articles covering what came out in the FDLE investigation that the court went by.

[Guest LadyC]

i think it has to do with a young girl who, like millions of teenage girls, is mad at mom and dad, only unlike millions of teen girls, has an ace up her sleeve that has put her in the national spotlight in the name of christianity.

Based on what? Other than an emotional statement, what else do you have? You might be right except for the fact that these types of honor killings happen all over the Muslim world.

They have also been recorded here in the US.

based on the FACTS that her parents have been very permissive and have allowed her to live a very westernized life. i'm well aware of honour killings happening all over the muslim world, and of them occasionally occurring here. but if she were going to be murdered by her parents for bringing shame to the family, they'd have killed her the first time she donned a tiny short skirt and pranced in front of a stadium full of people showing enough of her anatomy to leave so little to the imagination.

also based on the FACTS that one of HER former attorneys on the case has come out and stated that there is way more than meets the eye, and that the american public is taking a knee-jerk emotional reaction.

based on the FACTS that her parents have WILLINGLY offered to allow her to live in a state approved foster home and accept supervised visits in order to have their daughter near. not because they want to kill her, but because they LOVE HER and want to see her graduate high school!

based on the FACTS that this thing is soooo in the media spotlight that there is no way they could get away with murdering her.

it's not me who is making statements based on an emotional reaction. it is the vast majority of people who discuss this topic. the only FACT that most of you are willing to consider is that there is such a thing as honour killings in the muslim culture. therefore you leap to the conclusion that every muslim family must commit honour killings if their daughter steps out of line.

just wanted to bump this up. and nebula, i apologize, it seems as if i skipped right past your posts questioning me about what i've said, but others have questioned me as well so i hope that as i've responded to them, i'll have answered your questions!

[artsylady]

yeah, apparently they were made in court. and the flordia court ruled that there was no credible threat to the girl's life.

But these are available online?

now, did you go read the letter/article/whatever it was by the christian attorney who was on the case in the beginning? do you think he's lying?

It seems to me that he is sincere. But people can be sincerely wrong too.

oh, and the orlando sentinel and a couple of other florida newspapers online have articles covering what came out in the FDLE investigation that the court went by.

I'll try to do a search on this. Thank you.

[Guest LadyC]

so, the adult, the christian attorney, seems sincere but could be sincerely wrong, and rifqa, a 17 year old who is suddenly finding herself under a microscope and the drama and emotion of it all, could not be?

most of what i have stated i have found online, yes. some of what i have stated i've learned from news reports on tv, talk shows on radio, etc.

[artsylady]

so, the adult, the christian attorney, seems sincere but could be sincerely wrong, and rifqa, a 17 year old who is suddenly finding herself under a microscope and the drama and emotion of it all, could not be?

Rifqa's life seemed to be very dramatic before all of this. Just hopping on a bus to run away from home several states to get away from the only home she ever knew to go and stay with strangers is quite dramatic.

The lawyer for her mother would NOT have spoken to Rifqa. He is getting one side of the story and I'm sure her mother was very convincing. I can even say her mother probably loves her daughter and the lawyer is observing the kind of behavior any normal mother would exhibit in this kind of situation - crying, pleading, begging, torment, etc.

[nebula]

just wanted to bump this up. and nebula, i apologize, it seems as if i skipped right past your posts questioning me about what i've said, but others have questioned me as well so i hope that as i've responded to them, i'll have answered your questions!

OK, I'll wait.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 13 2009, 04:05 PM)

First of all, if you bother to read your Bible, Moses didn't order the murder of anyone. Secondly, Moses was not a pedofile. Secondly, Moses is not the founder of any religion. Thirdly, Moses did not promote violence as a means of subjugating other nations under His rule and authority or the rule and authority of any religion.

No he didn't order it...he commited the murder.

He committed ONE murder and that was done in defense of another human. I love the way you always argue in a vacuum of context.

Look, I'm not trying to compare Moses (a man of God) to Muhammad (a deceived man)...there are clear differences. However, my point was (as stated) there was plenty of violence to go around. Moses was a murderer, he led violent and bloody raids of his own.

What a crock. Moses did not lead any raids of His own. Moses did what the Lord told Him to do. Israel was used by God as a instrument of judgment on other nations. You cannot actually try to claim that such things qualify as the same kind of violence committed by Muhammed and his hordes who murdered peoplpe for money, power, sex, etc.

In either case...the vast majority of people in BOTH religions don't view those historical times as a way we should be today.

That is where you are wrong.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 13 2009, 04:05 PM)

Actually history says otherwise. If one examines the history of Islam, it is a violent, tryannical and bloodthirsty religion/government. The very name "Islam" means "to submit." Islam, in every nation where it is control is a very violent, tyrannical and brutal government. Honor killings, gender apartheid, female mutilation, deadly persecution of Jews and Christians regularly characterize life in those countries.

As for Islamic leaders. They say one thing in front of the western news media outlets, but say the opposite in when speaking in front of their own news media. They posture themselves as partners in peace today, but tomorrow, they are behind the curtain laughing at the gullibility of the west.

Ohhhhh... Islam means "submit"...well, clearly then all muslims must be terrorists. I don't get the connection.

The connection is that Islam is religion/government that demands complete and total submission to the exclusion of all other authorities. Unlike the Bible which teaches us to obey the governing authorities under which we live, Islam teaches that it alone is (or will one day be) the final authority on earth. Islam's overarching goal is global domination. The Islamic world makes no secret of that.

So they are 'submitted' to their beliefs. Indonesia, the worlds most populous Muslim nation, is not radically muslim in any way. The most populous muslim nation doesn't do honor killings??? Weird? I thought they had to cuz its in their bible? They are also vehemently anti-terrorism as they have felt the effects of radical islamists too. They reject all of the stuff you are saying...but they are running a moderate muslim country, and fighting terrorism to fool everyone?

You obviously don't understand the differences between "radical" and "moderate" Islam. Moderate Islam and the terrorists have the same agenda, but they simply use different methods.

The moderates you refer to fund the terrorists. The terrorist cells are not self-sufficient. It is the Arab/Muslm leaders who speak of peace in front of the western cameras, but who provide for the training and funding of terrorist cell groups. They fool gullible Americans that they reject terror, but they even provide the property for the terrorists to train on. Not only that, but the terrorists masquarade as "moderates." That is how they are able to remiain in this country. They have plenty of gullible people who are all to willing to hop on messageboards and defend them as well. Terrorists are not wild-eyed crazy people. They are well dressed, well mannered, they drive SUVs, drink Starbucks and blend in quite well with American society. Their job at this point is to remain undetected and to maintain a peaceful, low profile. Judging from your posts, they are doing a good job of it.

Indonesia is as intolerant as any other Muslim country.

As any other Muslim country???? You really don't have a clue. Find me ONE Muslim country that allows you to openly convert people to Christ without the penalty of death. In Muslim countries, nonMuslims are "dhimmis" which is a person who has no legal rights. Dhimmis are less than second class citizens that hold the most low paying jobs, cannot openly practice their religion or even speak of it in public. Dhimmis who have children are forced to have their children raised as Muslims. They have no access to legal counsel and certainly no freedom of speech. Dhimmi status must be paid for as well. Assuming that your request is granted, you are allowed to exist for another year. Muslim countries have some of the WORST human rights records on the planet and are known for their brutality, intolerance and inhumane treatment of women. But then I realize you won't let the facts get in the way of what you believe. You are the kind of westerner the terrorists like. If anything, people like you are terrorist enablers.

I think it is patently unfair to criticize Muslims for NOT speaking out against extremism (which the vast majority do)...

No, the vast majority of them do not. I can enumumerate many recent terrorist activities against which the Islamic world did not speak out against.

[Guest shiloh357]

Nothing you are saying proves that all muslims are terrorists or inclined to evil.

I never said that all muslims are terrorists and I did not say they are all evil. I simply acknowledged that those who are not violent are not considered "good" Muslims if we use Muhhammed as the standard by which Muslims are measured. All terrorists are good Muslims and reflect the true values of Islam.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 13 2009, 04:05 PM)

No, but it takes the wind out of your ridiculous attempt to draw moral equivancy between Islam and Christianity.

What?!?! I never said that! I said that people have used the bible and twisted it for their own purposes...and that is a historical fact! I have NEVER implied that Islam and Christianity are ANY type of equivalent. I've said that just because some radical extremists have taken the Quran and twisted it up and used it on a mostly uneducated and poverty stricken people...doesn't make all muslims, or the Quran violent.

Muslims do not have to twist the Koran to commit terorrism. The Koran is the terrorist's handbook.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 13 2009, 04:05 PM)

The Christian religion was not founded on vilonce and a selfish lust for power motivated by greed and blood lust.

Look...I'm agreeing with you again.

No, not really. I only made that point to highlight the fact that Islam IS based on a lust for power motivated by greed and blood lust. Nice job trying to ignore the context.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 13 2009, 04:05 PM)

Which only highlights a serious lack of knowledge on your part. To a skilled exegete, the two cannot even be compared.

I know, I'm stoopid and unskilled...you were doing soooo well. I'd say I'm ahead of the curve since most people don't even KNOW that the highest Islamic courts, clerics, and scholars have deemed those few historical passages as non-applicable in today's Islam.

Yeah, and I have some ocean-side property in Iraq I will sell you real cheap.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 13 2009, 04:05 PM)

No one is pulling verses out of context from the Koran. Islamists have learned the kind of arguments to use against us when we deal with what the Koran teaches and the true aims of Islam are. Whitewashing Islam's violent agenda and its bloody history is just part of it. Islam is bent on making the world dar al Islam. They are hell bent on global domination (they won't succeed, but that is their agenda) The Koran calls for the death of all nonMuslim infidels who reject Islam. There is no historical context that can make such things appear acceptable.

Yes, Christians are rightly puzzled by this obsession that Muslims have to spreading their beliefs throughtout the world...I mean, why can't they be more like American Christians and leave their global calling to putting a few dollars in the collection plate? Crazies??

No Christians are are simply and rightly offended at Islam's use of force and terror to impose its immoral, bloodthirsty agenda on the rest of the world.

The Quran does NOT call for the death of all non-muslims.

It would be nice to have "gullible-O-meter" handy everytime people like you say ridiculous things.

In fact, one of the major doctrines of Islam is that there is NO compulsion in religion. And ironically, this ties into the Rifqa Bary situation. Muhammad expressly forbade parents from trying to force their Jewish children to become Muslims. The relevance to the Rifqa Bary case cannot be understated: contrary to Rifqa's claim, the Quran forbids religious compulsion in general. The verse in question (2:256) was specifically revealed for parents in regard to their children of different faiths. Amazingly, the Quranic verse was revealed to forbid a Muslim father from forcing his Christian daughters into Islam. Sound familiar?

You really don't understand how it works. Muhammed early on, was friendly to the Jews, but that changed by the end of his life, Muhammed's posture changed 180 degrees. Even today, in Muslim countries, if someone converts to Judaism or Chrisitanity it is the death penalty. Islam today, reflects the pure hatred and anti-semitism that came from Muhammed and is in the Koran. The Koran says things in the early Surrahs that are changed in later Surrahs. You cannot simply quote a Surrah passage. You have to look at what is said AFTER it, in later chapters in the Koran. The Koran is does not follow the rules of literature like the Bible does and is a very confused piece of writing.

The fact is, the Quran is full of verses that tell Muslims that they cannot force converts. Its practically downright Calvinistic. I'm not going to start posting a bunch of Quran verses here because I do not wish to cause a brother to stumble...hopefully you understand that.

Calvinistic????Oh Please.... Honestly, you have nothing to offer that is any threat to me.