Predestination

[humbleseeker]

I voted Yes. Not that we do not have free will, but God is above are dimension of time and knows the beginning from the end. If that is true than he will know who will be his chosen elect and who will not. Is this unfair maybe to us as ignorant humans. I see the earth as Gods garden and we are the seeds some grow to light and become sons of God through Jesus and some do not. Why then would God need to put bad seed in the ground just to send those poor souls to hell. I belive if it wasnt for the bad seeds we would not become refined by fire making are faith as pure as gold, its God's process of making his chosen his children. Now this is just a theory not fact.

[Guest HIS girl]

I voted Yes. Not that we do not have free will, but God is above are dimension of time and knows the beginning from the end. If that is true than he will know who will be his chosen elect and who will not. Is this unfair maybe to us as ignorant humans. I see the earth as Gods garden and we are the seeds some grow to light and become sons of God through Jesus and some do not. Why then would God need to put bad seed in the ground just to send those poor souls to hell. I belive if it wasnt for the bad seeds we would not become refined by fire making are faith as pure as gold, its God's process of making his chosen his children. Now this is just a theory not fact.

So what does John 3v16 and John 12v49/50 mean to you?

What does it mean to you that Jesus said these words and what He said about the words He uttered?

[~candice~]

I voted Yes. Not that we do not have free will, but God is above are dimension of time and knows the beginning from the end. If that is true than he will know who will be his chosen elect and who will not. Is this unfair maybe to us as ignorant humans. I see the earth as Gods garden and we are the seeds some grow to light and become sons of God through Jesus and some do not. Why then would God need to put bad seed in the ground just to send those poor souls to hell. I belive if it wasnt for the bad seeds we would not become refined by fire making are faith as pure as gold, its God's process of making his chosen his children. Now this is just a theory not fact.

So what does John 3v16 and John 12v49/50 mean to you?

What does it mean to you that Jesus said these words and what He said about the words He uttered?

John 3:16 doesn't preclude predestination, perhaps people misunderstand the meaning of that word? In the bible we read a delicate intertwining of God's Will and man's free will. I don't see a clash between the two. Those people from John 3:16 who believe, did so freely, and were predestined to do so. They were drawn by the Father, and Jesus is the Author and Finisher of their faith.

I think we must be really careful here to appeal to scripture and not human logic nor what seems fair. There is both free will and predestination in the bible. When we neglect one of these we end up with poor doctrine. BOTH exist together. Those who want to claim that predesitnation can't occur because free will occurs, have thrown out some scripture. Similarly those who claim that we have no free will because God has predestined everything (like we are just robots) also have thrown out some scripture.

This isn't about man's logic or feelings, look to the Word!

[Guest HIS girl]

I voted Yes. Not that we do not have free will, but God is above are dimension of time and knows the beginning from the end. If that is true than he will know who will be his chosen elect and who will not. Is this unfair maybe to us as ignorant humans. I see the earth as Gods garden and we are the seeds some grow to light and become sons of God through Jesus and some do not. Why then would God need to put bad seed in the ground just to send those poor souls to hell. I belive if it wasnt for the bad seeds we would not become refined by fire making are faith as pure as gold, its God's process of making his chosen his children. Now this is just a theory not fact.

So what does John 3v16 and John 12v49/50 mean to you?

What does it mean to you that Jesus said these words and what He said about the words He uttered?

John 3:16 doesn't preclude predestination, perhaps people misunderstand the meaning of that word? In the bible we read a delicate intertwining of God's Will and man's free will. I don't see a clash between the two. Those people from John 3:16 who believe, did so freely, and were predestined to do so. They were drawn by the Father, and Jesus is the Author and Finisher of their faith.

I think we must be really careful here to appeal to scripture and not human logic nor what seems fair. There is both free will and predestination in the bible. When we neglect one of these we end up with poor doctrine. BOTH exist together. Those who want to claim that predesitnation can't occur because free will occurs, have thrown out some scripture. Similarly those who claim that we have no free will because God has predestined everything (like we are just robots) also have thrown out some scripture.

This isn't about man's logic or feelings, look to the Word!

I always do look to the Word and I have mentioned this fact before - I check scripture against what Jesus says.

I do the same with what Christians say too, against what Jesus says about it.

[OneLight]

Here is another way to think of predestination. God is not bound by time. Because of this, He looked down through time and knows exactly who will and will not accept Him. Knowing this, He predestined those who will to do for Him certain works and gain certain rewards, before He even created anything. It is all His plan, which is a perfect plan, even if we can make decisions. Having a free will is all part of His plan. Why would He want anyone who is not His? He would not, so He has set this plan into action, allowing us to choose. Seeing through time, He knew who will accept Him.

[~candice~]

I voted Yes. Not that we do not have free will, but God is above are dimension of time and knows the beginning from the end. If that is true than he will know who will be his chosen elect and who will not. Is this unfair maybe to us as ignorant humans. I see the earth as Gods garden and we are the seeds some grow to light and become sons of God through Jesus and some do not. Why then would God need to put bad seed in the ground just to send those poor souls to hell. I belive if it wasnt for the bad seeds we would not become refined by fire making are faith as pure as gold, its God's process of making his chosen his children. Now this is just a theory not fact.

So what does John 3v16 and John 12v49/50 mean to you?

What does it mean to you that Jesus said these words and what He said about the words He uttered?

John 3:16 doesn't preclude predestination, perhaps people misunderstand the meaning of that word? In the bible we read a delicate intertwining of God's Will and man's free will. I don't see a clash between the two. Those people from John 3:16 who believe, did so freely, and were predestined to do so. They were drawn by the Father, and Jesus is the Author and Finisher of their faith.

I think we must be really careful here to appeal to scripture and not human logic nor what seems fair. There is both free will and predestination in the bible. When we neglect one of these we end up with poor doctrine. BOTH exist together. Those who want to claim that predesitnation can't occur because free will occurs, have thrown out some scripture. Similarly those who claim that we have no free will because God has predestined everything (like we are just robots) also have thrown out some scripture.

This isn't about man's logic or feelings, look to the Word!

I always do look to the Word and I have mentioned this fact before - I check scripture against what Jesus says.

I do the same with what Christians say too, against what Jesus says about it.

Sorry HisGirl, I know you do this... my discussion on looking to the Word wasn't in response to you but to the OP.

[Guest HIS girl]

I voted Yes. Not that we do not have free will, but God is above are dimension of time and knows the beginning from the end. If that is true than he will know who will be his chosen elect and who will not. Is this unfair maybe to us as ignorant humans. I see the earth as Gods garden and we are the seeds some grow to light and become sons of God through Jesus and some do not. Why then would God need to put bad seed in the ground just to send those poor souls to hell. I belive if it wasnt for the bad seeds we would not become refined by fire making are faith as pure as gold, its God's process of making his chosen his children. Now this is just a theory not fact.

So what does John 3v16 and John 12v49/50 mean to you?

What does it mean to you that Jesus said these words and what He said about the words He uttered?

John 3:16 doesn't preclude predestination, perhaps people misunderstand the meaning of that word? In the bible we read a delicate intertwining of God's Will and man's free will. I don't see a clash between the two. Those people from John 3:16 who believe, did so freely, and were predestined to do so. They were drawn by the Father, and Jesus is the Author and Finisher of their faith.

I think we must be really careful here to appeal to scripture and not human logic nor what seems fair. There is both free will and predestination in the bible. When we neglect one of these we end up with poor doctrine. BOTH exist together. Those who want to claim that predesitnation can't occur because free will occurs, have thrown out some scripture. Similarly those who claim that we have no free will because God has predestined everything (like we are just robots) also have thrown out some scripture.

This isn't about man's logic or feelings, look to the Word!

I always do look to the Word and I have mentioned this fact before - I check scripture against what Jesus says.

I do the same with what Christians say too, against what Jesus says about it.

Sorry HisGirl, I know you do this... my discussion on looking to the Word wasn't in response to you but to the OP.

No worries andy.

[princess2000]

It's become apparent that my question was worded really poorly.

In the 1600's...1700's whenever Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church and all the other religions sprung up, in Austria certain cities were completely run by the church, in these cities the upper class, whom everyone looked to were those destined for heaven, they believed anyone except those select few that comprised the upper class (and the upper class wasn't hereditary as it was in other societies) were the only ones getting to heaven, if you weren't one of the ones selected, oh well, sorry, looks like no matter how good a life you lead you're not getting to heaven. My ancestor by marriage, Jonathan Edwards, even preached about how God didn't care about us. I know that teaching has fallen by the wayside but I hadn't realized that the select few, the 144,000 has also fallen by the wayside.

Peace out

~Beka

[OneLight]

It's become apparent that my question was worded really poorly.

In the 1600's...1700's whenever Martin Luther split from the Catholic Church and all the other religions sprung up, in Austria certain cities were completely run by the church, in these cities the upper class, whom everyone looked to were those destined for heaven, they believed anyone except those select few that comprised the upper class (and the upper class wasn't hereditary as it was in other societies) were the only ones getting to heaven, if you weren't one of the ones selected, oh well, sorry, looks like no matter how good a life you lead you're not getting to heaven. My ancestor by marriage, Jonathan Edwards, even preached about how God didn't care about us. I know that teaching has fallen by the wayside but I hadn't realized that the select few, the 144,000 has also fallen by the wayside.

Peace out

~Beka

What makes you think that the 144,000 has fallen by the wayside? These 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel and will not be given the seal until the Tribulation, as we read in Revelation 7:4-8

The 144,000

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,

rom the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,

from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

As for the rich, have you not read that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God?

[spiritman]

if we are talking predestination in the terms that a calvinist would use it; for example, God set down at the beginning of time and said; "Tom is going to heaven, Jim's going to hell. Then if your talking about it in that context then my vote is " I don't believe in that kind of predestination."