The 144,000 Spiritual Israel?

[Matthitjah]

Hi all,

I started this thread to find out what the sentiment on the 144,000 is.

I hope you've found it my friend Shadow2b.

The question is who are the 144,000 found in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14?

I have been studying this and the 2 Witness' of late.

I think the 144,000 are Spiritual Israel at the end times.A representation of G-ds perfect Israel. Not a specific figure of 144,000 but a representation of the saved in Christ.

Headed up by the 12 apostles and lead by Christ whom they adore

Shadow2b,

You have said they are 144,00 Jewish virgins redeemed from the earth as the firstfruits.

First of all the Tribes represented in Revelation 7 never existed as the 12 original tribes mentioned in the old testament.

Note in verse 4 John hears the number of those sealed of the tribes of the childern of Israel.

In verse 9 after he hears it he looks and see's a great multitude which no one could number of all nations, tribes, tongues, and peoples.

Who are the children of Israel and what of the 12 tribes?

Matthew 19:28

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the son of man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for my names sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life."

Romans 9:6-8

But it is not that the Word of G-d has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

7 Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham: but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of G-d; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Not excluding Israel, but the perfect Israel will consist of all those who are of the Faith of Jesus Christ. This includes the remnant of redeemed Jews who believe even to this day.

We see more of their charecteristics in Revelation 14. They are opposite the charecteristics of those in Revealtion 13 who take the Mark and worship the Beast.

More later........

Peace :inlove: Amen

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Dr. Luke,

Romans 9:6-8

But it is not that the Word of G-d has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

7 Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham: but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of G-d; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Not excluding Israel, but the perfect Israel will consist of all those who are of the Faith of Jesus Christ. This includes the remnant of redeemed Jews who believe even to this day.

I have addressed this issue elswhere, but perhaps you have not seen it. The "true Israel" are those Jews born of the flesh of Jacob, but are of the "faith of Abraham". These DO NOT include the gentiles.

You correctly addressed some of the correct scriptures so I will continue to iterate upon them.

The promise of "father of many nations" was to Abraham who was a gentile, and it was going to be through HIS seed (Isaac) through whom the MANY NATIONS would come. Isaac bore TWO sons, one of who became ISRAEL, the Father of the 12 tribes, and the other was ESAU who married into Ishmael's family and so the promise of MANY nations actually came through Esau. Jacob was ONE, Esau became MANY. We are NOT of our father JACOB's faith, but we are of our father ABRAHAM's faith and we are the seed of ISAAC, NOT JACOB. Our HIGH PRIEST IS NOT of the Levitical Priesthood, but was made a priest after the order of Melchisedek - a gentile.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shadow2b]

Hi all,

I started this thread to find out what the sentiment on the 144,000 is.

I hope you've found it my friend Shadow2b.

The question is who are the 144,000 found in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14?

I have been studying this and the 2 Witness' of late.

I think the 144,000 are Spiritual Israel at the end times.A representation of G-ds perfect Israel. Not a specific figure of 144,000 but a representation of the saved in Christ.

Headed up by the 12 apostles and lead by Christ whom they adore

Shadow2b,

You have said they are 144,00 Jewish virgins redeemed from the earth as the firstfruits.

First of all the Tribes represented in Revelation 7 never existed as the 12 original tribes mentioned in the old testament.

Note in verse 4 John hears the number of those sealed of the tribes of the childern of Israel.

In verse 9 after he hears it he looks and see's a great multitude which no one could number of all nations, tribes, tongues, and peoples.

Who are the children of Israel and what of the 12 tribes?

Matthew 19:28

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the son of man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for my names sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life."

Romans 9:6-8

But it is not that the Word of G-d has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

7 Nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham: but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of G-d; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Not excluding Israel, but the perfect Israel will consist of all those who are of the Faith of Jesus Christ. This includes the remnant of redeemed Jews who believe even to this day.

We see more of their charecteristics in Revelation 14. They are opposite the charecteristics of those in Revealtion 13 who take the Mark and worship the Beast.

More later........

Peace :inlove: Amen

HI DOC & we most assuredly are FRIENDS & more --WE are

BROTHERS in THE LORD & you're STUCK with me for a veeeeeerrrrrrrrrryyyyyyy LOOOOOOOOoNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG

time[whether ya-wanna-be-or not--] haaaaaaaa--haaaaaaaaa---HUMOR??--I hope---  

  o.k. now to the 144,000 -- REV.7.-in vs.1-- john SAW four angels-- & john is describing the events JESUS-YESHUA- is showing to him.--in the beginning of revelations vs.1-john states  GOD gave these revelations to JESUS-YESHUA-to SHEW unto HIS servants  the things that MUST shortly come to pass & HE signified IT[the REVELATION] by HIS angel to HIS servant john-- i looked up the word*SIGNIFIED* in strongs

-SIGNIFIED=4591-*SEMAINO-a mark to indicate--4592-=an indication,especially cer.-or-supernatural,miracle,sign,TOKEN-

 in rev.7.-vs.-4 --the angel states that none of the coming events [judgements] can commence until the 144,000 ISRAELITES are SEALED [with a mark]in their foreheads proving they BELONG to GOD,& JESUS-YESHUA & cannot belong to any one else--12,000 from each tribe of ISRAEL--

sorry doc[ i didn't say anything--BUT quoted GOD'S WORD]

ie.- rev.14.-vss.1.-thru.-5---vs 1-states-AND I LOOKED,AND,LO,A LAMB STOOD ON THE MOUNT SION,AND WITH HIM AN HUNDRED FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND,HAVING HIS FATHER'S NAME WRITTEN IN THEIR FOREHEADS..these are the same ISRAELITES  that are SEALED[with A MARK in their foreheads]-in rev.14.-vs.3.-these 144,000 which were REDEEMED from the earth & they LEARN[are taught a NEW SONG] song in this instance as in rev.5.-vs.-9--& rev.14.-vs.3--  in strongs--gr.103.-SONG-==ado.prim. verb.-to sing-

gr.142.-airo--a prim verb.to lift;by impl. to take up or away,fig.to raise[the voice]keep in suspense[the mind]spec.to sail away.[ie weigh anchor]by heb.[comp5375]to expiate sin---away with,bear [up]carry,lift up,loose,make to doubt,put away,remove,take [away, up]---doc, how is it that these 12 tribes NEVER existed as the 12 original tribes in the old testament[COVENANT]??.?? rev.7.-vs.4.-an hundred and

forty and four thousand of ALL the tribes of the CHILDREN of ISRAEL.??--in strongs-rev.7.vs.4--rev.21.-vs.12--CHILDREN==

=gr. 5207-huios-5206.-huiothesia-=prim.verb.-a 'son',used very widely[some times of animals] immed.,remote or fig.kinship,-child,foal,son,-the placing as a son,i.e.adoption,fig.sonship in respect to GOD-adoption [of children, of sons]--eph.2.-vs.19.- gr.3609.gr.3624.oikos household-oikeios,

domestic,relative, adherent-those of his own household,family,

more or less related,home,house[hold]temple.---gal.6.vs.10--

eph.2.-vs.19-- NOW THEREFORE YE ARE NO MORE STRANGERS AND FOREIGNERS, BUT FELLOW-CITIZENS WITH THE SAINTS,AND OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD.---GA.6.VS.-10---AS WE HAVE THEREFORE OPPORTUNITY, LET US DO GOOD UNTO ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY UNTO THEM WHO ARE OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH.-------  DOC, the 12 tribes of ISRAEL are individually named except DAN-- dan was cut-off-out of GOD'S new covenant for perversion & total rejection of GOD,but dan was replaced by the tribe of JOSEPH--& the two half tribes of manassas & ephraim.. i think that's right i remember studying about joseph & his two sons, i may have the sons names wrong,so i'll have to get my books on this down & i will get the correct names [HOPEFULLY??] GOD said HIS COVENANT was an IRREVOCable covenant with--ABRAHAM, ISAAC,& JACOB[ jocobs name was changed to ISRAEL] & his twelve sons were & are the 12 tribes of ISRAEL.

there was no tribe of joseph untill dan was rejected..you are correct that these in 7.vs.9 are ALL the redeemed of the earth

but the 144,000 are a distinct & a separate people..in rev.14.vss.3,-4.-5----in vs 3 - the 144,000 learn a NEW SONG

which no body else can LEARN.WHY??vs4.-the 144,000 are VIRGINS which wereNOT defiled with WOMEN--NO SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH WOMEN-----these were REDEEMED from among MEN,-a FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD AND THE LAMB.---*IF*

these 144,000 are just representive of WHAT??.?? WHO.??.??

these 144,000-are before the THRONE of GOD,without FAULT,

these 144,000 follow THE LAMB whithersoever HE GOETH..

who OR WHAT do they represent??.?? i tend to believe what GOD'S WORD states unless it can be proven scripturally that i am wrong...sooooooo where did i go wrong here??.?? the entire peoples,tribes,nations SAVED by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB are the spiritual, perfect ISRAEL brought nigh unto the household of ISRAEL are we  not??.?? eph.2.-vss.11.-thru.-13----gentiles wereAFAR off NOW brought nigh unto the commonwealth of ISRAEL--household of ISRAEL,HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH.--??.??  i hope i've got all this down right so it doesn'T confuse you .... waiting very expectantly for your continued teachings------------GOD-BLESS----

                                      SHALOM

                                        shadow2b

[angels4u]

Hi Dr Luke,

The 144.000 are in my opinion clearly Jewish believers,these believers are saved during the early part of the Tribulation.The seal on their forehand brands them as belonging to God and guarantees that they will be preserved alive during the 7 years of tribulation.

Two  tribes are absent from the list Ephraim and Dan,perhaps they were omitted because they were leaders in idolatry, some think that the Antichrist might come from Dan (Gen 49:17.

I believe that the 144.ooo will preach the gospel during the tribulation they will try to turn men back to God to prepare them for Christs Kingdom on earth.

What do you think, can it be this  way??

Love in Christ,Angels

[Matthitjah]

Greetings back at ya Dad Ernie,

I said Spiritual Israel not Literal Israel.

Genesis 12:3

I will bless those who bless you.

And I will curse him who curses you ;

And in you all the families of the Earth shall be blessed.

(Jesus Christ)

Genesis 17:19 Then G-d said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.

(The only everlasting covenant in my mind is the covenant of Jesus Christ. Which we gentiles were grafted into.)

I believe this is what Paul speaks of in Romans 9:8 when he say's children of the flesh are not the children of G-d but children of the promise (or Spirit) are.Thus Spiritual Israel.Believers of the everlasting covenant. Many people count themselves children of Abraham. Not all are counted of the Faith of Abraham which was accounted to him for Righteousness. He knew G-d would provide the perfect sacrifice.

Shadow2b,

Brother forever...................

There are 19 different arrangements of these tribes in the Old Testament. None of which agree with this list.

Levi was a tribe of priests in service to G-d.

Dan was left out because he was a viper in the way. Biting the horses heel making the rider fall backward.Stated by his own father in Gen 49:17.

Ephraim is left out because he is joined to idols.

The Tribes mentioned represent Spiritual assets and charecteristics of the whole of the

[Matthitjah]

Dear Angels4u,

My friend in Christ.

First one would have to prove there is an absolute 7 year Tribulation period.

To make that 144,000 a literal number in interpretation.One must overcome a formiddable straight jacket. The Tribes were scattered such as they were. Not only by Babylon but also Rome.

If the 144,000 are sealed as servants of G-d? Why not then all the servants of G-d? We are all equal under Grace.If these be special Saints or Prophets? Why then were they not Raptured in the early Pre Trib Rapture? They must be really special even more special than those Raptured. They are hand chosen special of the tribes of Israel.

It all comes back to this Goliath of a doctrine called Pre Trib.

You must clear your mind of all your preconceived notions and study the Word. You know my position on that.

My given name is David like him I am trying to slay Goliath.

Love of Christ back at ya,

Peace

:inlove: Amen

[Guest shadow2b]

Greetings back at ya Dad Ernie,

I said Spiritual Israel not Literal Israel.

Genesis 12:3

I will bless those who bless you.

And I will curse him who curses you ;

And in you all the families of the Earth shall be blessed.

(Jesus Christ)

Genesis 17:19 Then G-d said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.

(The only everlasting covenant in my mind is the covenant of Jesus Christ. Which we gentiles were grafted into.)

I believe this is what Paul speaks of in Romans 9:8 when he say's children of the flesh are not the children of G-d but children of the promise (or Spirit) are.Thus Spiritual Israel.Believers of the everlasting covenant. Many people count themselves children of Abraham. Not all are counted of the Faith of Abraham which was accounted to him for Righteousness. He knew G-d would provide the perfect sacrifice.

Shadow2b,

Brother forever...................

There are 19 different arrangements of these tribes in the Old Testament. None of which agree with this list.

Levi was a tribe of priests in service to G-d.

Dan was left out because he was a viper in the way. Biting the horses heel making the rider fall backward.Stated by his own father in Gen 49:17.

Ephraim is left out because he is joined to idols.

The Tribes mentioned represent Spiritual assets and charecteristics of the whole of the

[Guest shadow2b]

Dear Angels4u,

My friend in Christ.

First one would have to prove there is an absolute 7 year Tribulation period.

To make that 144,000 a literal number in interpretation.One must overcome a formiddable straight jacket. The Tribes were scattered such as they were. Not only by Babylon but also Rome.

If the 144,000 are sealed as servants of G-d? Why not then all the servants of G-d? We are all equal under Grace.If these be special Saints or Prophets? Why then were they not Raptured in the early Pre Trib Rapture? They must be really special even more special than those Raptured. They are hand chosen special of the tribes of Israel.

It all comes back to this Goliath of a doctrine called Pre Trib.

You must clear your mind of all your preconceived notions and study the Word. You know my position on that.

My given name is David like him I am trying to slay Goliath.

Love of Christ back at ya,

Peace

:inlove: Amen

heeeeeeyyyyyyy DOC.--i think you have addressed the seventy weeks on another thread butttt, for trying to prove

there is an absolute seven year tribulation period  lets address the prophet daniel--in dan.9.-vs.-24-----GOD'S word clearly states [seventy weeks are determined on your people]

and upon thy holy city,to finish the transgression,and to make an end of sins.and to make reconciliation for iniquity.----

in the jewish tradition of writings, especially in prophecy some events occur immediately ,some a little later and some don't occur for a long time,like in daniel ,he was studying the writings of jeremiah & understood the slavery of the ISRAELITES was about to end--dan.9.-vss.-1.-----so, in dan.9.- vs.24-&-25,- the prophecy is spelled out in parts & divided in time frames of weeks representing years..[is that understandable??.??]first-part-seventy weeks of punishment for the nation OF ISRAEL----2/nd part---judgement on the city of jerusalem[ the holy city of GOD] 3/rd part--to finish the transgression,4/th part--to make an end of sins.--or more rightly--to pay the penalty for sin.----5/th part.--to make reconciliation for iniquity.--[to restore sinfull man to his rightfull place with GOD] 6/th part-oooooppppppppssssss--YET TO BE FULFILLED------3 parts yet to be fulfilled--the prophecy in total cannot be fulfilled or finished untill----everlasting righteousness is established  when the earth is cleansed & the new jerusalem comes down from heaven..----

then the vision & the prophecy will be sealed up [fulfilled,completed] & the FINAL act which will truly fulfill, seal up, finish,& bring in everlasting righteousness.,& to anoint

the MOST HOLY--JESUS--YESHUA.--which will complete the 70/th week.-- in dan.9.-vs.-25.--accounts for only 69 weeks which leaves the 70/th week to be fulfilled when the anti-christ signs a seven year covenant with ISRAEL to guarantee their safety..--------- hope this is understandable------

                                  SHALOM

                                   sgadow2b

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Dr. Luke,

I believe this is what Paul speaks of in Romans 9:8 when he say's children of the flesh are not the children of G-d but children of the promise (or Spirit) are.Thus Spiritual Israel.Believers of the everlasting covenant. Many people count themselves children of Abraham. Not all are counted of the Faith of Abraham which was accounted to him for Righteousness. He knew G-d would provide the perfect sacrifice.

Yes, I understood you the first time.

First, isn't the book of Romans extraordinarily complete? Along with Hebrews, it is probably the least or (mis) understood of all the Epistles. But greater scholars than I have learned that it is a cohesive unit, broken down into several major areas. The chapters 9-11 deal primarily with the Jews. For example:

Ch 9 reveals that Paul was lamenting that "his brothers in the flesh" had "missed" their day of salvation.

Ch 10 then tells us the outline of the Gospel of Jesus Christ by which the Jews (in fact everyone) must be saved, but Paul is specifically speaking of the Jews.

Ch 11 then reveals that God INDEED has not totally forsaken the Jews, but will in the end days, when the Kingdom of God has been filled to its capacity with Gentiles, then God will undertake to change the hearts of the "fleshly Jews" to receive the Gospel from the gentile ministers He sends to them.

Paul clarifies his Jewishness and his belonging to the RACE of the Jews (his brothers in the flesh) and at that time God had kept a "remnant" of Jews (Paul, the rest of the Apostles, and perhaps some others) that were considered "true Jews", "spiritual Jews" if you will, who were ALSO of the "faith of Abraham". Not once is there ANYTHING in the Gospels which declare that the church becomes "spiritual Israel", or MUST become a part of spiritual Israel, or replaces the true Israel (spiritual Israel).

I harp on this all the time because it is important that Christians distinguish between the Jew and the Gentile in God's plan of salvation. It is NOT that there is any difference between the two as far as the Gospel goes, BUT, that there will yet be a day for ALL ISRAEL to be saved. This is NOT speaking of believing gentiles. So the distinction MUST be kept.

In the event you have never studied it, may I suggest you type in your Bible program the word "fig" and read all the Gospel citations of it. This is the tree which represents Israel. The tree which represents the "Kingdom of God" in Romans 11 is the "olive tree". There is a distinction.

You may refer to the verses in Ephesians as support for Christians "drawing nigh" to Israel. I have also posted much about this, and while it is true that we draw NEAR to Israel, it means that within the "Kingdom of God" which the gentiles now receive stand side by side with "our fathers in the faith" and the Apostles, as well as Jesus Christ. The province of the Kingdom of God was once the sole possession of Israel, but it was taken from them and given over to "whomsoever will", namely "nations" which means "peoples", which are mostly made up of "gentiles.

Please give these things some thought and research.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Snowdoove]

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will fo God and our Father; To whom be glory for ever and ever, Amen.

After reading many of the posts under the topic, "The 144,000 Spiritual Israel," I am some what surprised at all the different interpetations.

I was under the impression -

The 144,000 are Jews who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah. These people always will be Jewish, and

will