Church Gimmick Fills Pews

[KC02]

According to your logic, Christians should never help anybody since they might buy drugs or beer. This isn't gambling. God doesn't expect us to be mind readers. What if you gave a homeless man a pair of boots and he traded it for crack? Should we tell all homeless people to go barefoot?

Your comments are very caustic. I'm going to be honest. I'm not sure if I have done anything to win the lost last week. But this pastor is doing something and that is more than I am doing. If one person gets saved or even attends extra church services, I think the whole thing is worth it. What is the cost of one lost soul? It's more than $250.

Is it a gamble to invest in human beings? Sure it is. Pastors do this every day. That is their job. That is our job as believers... to invest in crack heads and beer drinkers and all these other unworthy people.

The Pastor has no idea what the person will do with the money. It could very well be someone with a drug problem or it could be a single mom who needed rent money. He is gambling to say the least on the good nature of the person receiving the cash, so in some cases, it may as well be beer. That was the point of using the keg.

If the Pastor in question is not mature enough to make mature decisions, should he be behind the pulpit in the first place? He should of studies these scripture before becoming a Pastor.

[...]

[Fez]

Mar 11:15 And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

Mar 11:16 And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple.

Mar 11:17 And he was teaching them and saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations'? But you have made it a den of robbers."

Mar 15:24 And they crucified him and divided his garments among them, casting lots for them, to decide what each should take.

"What is the cost of one lost soul? It's more than $250."- KCO2

1. Selling and buying in the temple (yes you may say this is not the same. Why is it not?)

2. Casting lots - gambling for His clothes (Yes you may say this is not the same. Why is it not?)

3. "What is the cost of one lost soul", (I agree it is priceless!)

So I do not judge the man, but what he is doing.

Ask yourself this. What are your feelings towards those that gambled for our Kings clothes? Is there any difference to gambling for money in church? Is gambling under the Cross and gambling in church different?

And if you say payment of money is right because souls may be saved, are you saying that the result of casting lots for His clothes after His blood was spilled for us, is in the same league?

We will have to disagree then. I believe this is wrong, and lets not bring it down to the essence of the pastor, I do not judge him, I simply say that what is happening in this church is wrong, and it is not a place I would want to worship in. I would not want my soul purchased with a $, it was purchased with Holy Blood.

Blessings

[KC02]

So I do not judge the man, but what he is doing.

Let's do it this way then. Let's count all the evil this pastor has done:

1) Promoted his church worldwide perhaps with only $1000 per month

2) Given people an incentive not to miss a service

3) Reached lost people no doubt who came to church

4) Helped other people in a very bad recession

5) Compelled lost people to give their life to Christ

I find no fault in what he is doing. You guys quote unrelated verses to support your hostile and hateful attitude toward the lost and this pastor. I don't see any sense in it. It is neither a religious nor Christian attitude.

I would not want my soul purchased with a $, it was purchased with Holy Blood.

Yes, your soul was purchased with holy blood, but what about the pastor who befriended you and answered your calls at 3am and spent his last $20 in gas to get to church? I was just saying that a pastor's work is a gamble. He doesn't know if you will make it to heaven or if you are worth the time of day.

It takes money to win the lost, especially in this culture. People spend more time in front of a computer than they do interacting with people. I say, "get with the program!" How is a hateful attitude going to benefit the church?

Quoting verses to show your superior Spirituality is both vile and offensive. And what did you guys do last week to win the lost? Complain about others getting their hands dirty?

[Fez]

So I do not judge the man, but what he is doing.

Let's do it this way then. Let's count all the evil this pastor has done:

1) Promoted his church worldwide perhaps with only $1000 per month

2) Given people an incentive not to miss a service

3) Reached lost people no doubt who came to church

4) Helped other people in a very bad recession

5) Compelled lost people to give their life to Christ

I find no fault in what he is doing. You guys quote unrelated verses to support your hostile and hateful attitude toward the lost and this pastor. I don't see any sense in it. It is neither a religious nor Christian attitude.

I would not want my soul purchased with a $, it was purchased with Holy Blood.

Yes, your soul was purchased with holy blood, but what about the pastor who befriended you and answered your calls at 3am and spent his last $20 in gas to get to church? I was just saying that a pastor's work is a gamble. He doesn't know if you will make it to heaven or if you are worth the time of day.

It takes money to win the lost, especially in this culture. People spend more time in front of a computer than they do interacting with people. I say, "get with the program!" How is a hateful attitude going to benefit the church?

Quoting verses to show your superior Spirituality is both vile and offensive. And what did you guys do last week to win the lost? Complain about others getting their hands dirty?

To answer your judgemental post....

Well lets see....

I said I do not judge him, you called him evil

And the pastor who spends his last $20 to get to church? His storehouse in heaven is huge!

And every pastor knows that every person is "worth the time of day"...every person

Where have I been hateful?

Quoting verses is what we do, for in them is the only truth. Since when did scripture become vile and offensive? And as to being superior spritually? I am a servant, no more, and there are those on Worthy who are streaks ahead of me in their knowledge and understanding!

As to getting our hands dirty? Well lets see. I officiated at a funeral of a friend who committed suicide, I attended home group (I host it), I attended prayer meeting, I attended to an emerging church of 60 new christians an hours drive from my home, (I did the sound desk, and microphones, and ran the computer) and I phoned the pastor in Mozambique that I support to see if he needed anything before I go up there for my December break to give 50 kids a party, and to attend home groups that are a 4 hour drive offroad into areas that still have landmines left over from the civil war.. (if we hit one of those more than our hands will be dirty, the inside of my car might be ). And to see how the clinic, school, orphanage, and two mission houses that we have assisted building, need anything more in the way of material.

Oh, and I spent yesterday holding the hand of a friend who is having relationship problems, and directed her to scripture (not the vile and offensive kind - could not find any! . Oh and spent 4 hours on my computer talking to a very good christian friend in the evening (until 2am).

Now I am here on Worthy, and tonight my home group is on duty at church.

"Dirty" enough for you?

Oh, and I did it all out of Love, and did not even have to gamble to do it!

blessings

[KC02]

Great! I'm glad you are keeping busy for the Kingdom. Now, I wonder about the rest of the naysayers.

Excuse me brother, but I never said any verse was vile or offensive. Using the Bible as an excuse to be hateful is vile and offensive, at least to me. Some religious people in Jesus' day could quote Scripture in order to justify not giving aid to an infant on the Sabbath. We can take our religion and holiness too far.

When it interferes in wining the lost, it has gone too far.

Oh, and I spent yesterday holding the hand of a friend who is having relationship problems, and directed her to scripture (not the vile and offensive kind - could not find any! . Oh and spent 4 hours on my computer talking to a very good christian friend in the evening (until 2am).

Now I am here on Worthy, and tonight my home group is on duty at church.

"Dirty" enough for you?

Oh, and I did it all out of Love, and did not even have to gamble to do it!

blessings

[Fez]

Great! I'm glad you are keeping busy for the Kingdom. Now, I wonder about the rest of the naysayers.

Excuse me brother, but I never said any verse was vile or offensive. Using the Bible as an excuse to be hateful is vile and offensive, at least to me. Some religious people in Jesus' day could quote Scripture in order to justify not giving aid to an infant on the Sabbath. We can take our religion and holiness too far.

When it interferes in wining the lost, it has gone too far.

Oh, and I spent yesterday holding the hand of a friend who is having relationship problems, and directed her to scripture (not the vile and offensive kind - could not find any! . Oh and spent 4 hours on my computer talking to a very good christian friend in the evening (until 2am).

Now I am here on Worthy, and tonight my home group is on duty at church.

"Dirty" enough for you?

Oh, and I did it all out of Love, and did not even have to gamble to do it!

blessings

Yes I agree there are Pharisees out there. And I too disagree with "religious". "Show me a man with a lot of religion in his shop window, and I will venture to guess that he has little stock in the back" - (or words to that effect) - Spurgeon.

I guess with this church thing we will just have to agree to disagree (and you know what, thats ok, as long as we love and respect each other as believers)

blessings

[nikki1]

KCO2

The pastor is a marketing genius. There is nothing worldly about reaching the lost, nor is it sinful to be smart about promoting your church.

A one million dollar marketing campaign could not have gotten this much attention for the pastor and his church. And people are getting saved to boot.

Which Scripture speaks against wining the lost? Didn't Jesus tell us to compel them to come in? Isn't that exactly what the pastor is doing?

Please stop quoting random, unrelated verses.

It is written in John's Gospel that when Jesus perceived that the people were only following him because they got fed he rebuked them.

If the Gospel message of salvation is not enough to get one to follow Jesus, then the person is not following him for the right reasons. A worldly gimmick is so easy to lure the lost into church through a money gimmick as in this latest worldly scheme, taking advantage of the people and the hard economic times, but it is wrong, and it does matter to God.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves and were filled.John 6:26

These people saw the miracles, but only wanted what Jesus had to offer in the way of food to fill their belly; or in this case,what the pastor can give them through the money gimmick in hopes that their name would be pulled and they will win the lottery. All of a sudden the pastor reports the attendence in his congregation has gone up since he started the worldly money gimmick. I have recently read that instead of taking in up to $25,000 a week, he now brings in $40,000 a week. But,even a car salesman knows that once you start these worldly marketing schemes to keep the money and customers coming in, you have to out do the garage up the street, or the people will go there instead.

You can make out of the Scripture what you want, but I believe our Lord has more to offer than money or a car. He said And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me John 12:32

Blessings,

Nikki

[Axxman]

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves and were filled.John 6:26

I have recently read that instead of taking in up to $25,000 a week, he now brings in $40,000 a week. But,even a car salesman knows that once you start these worldly marketing schemes to keep the money and customers coming in, you have to out do the garage up the street, or the people will go there instead.

The scripture in John shows that Jesus did in fact use the gimmick though...right! He DID feed them, and they did follow Him...right? And then...he did preach to them right? Don't be critical of the person using the tools (or what you call a gimmick)...be critical of those who take the kindness in the wrong way. You wouldn't dare blame Jesus for blessing the people he fed...and yet you take the same scripture and use it to blame the pastor for blessing the people he's feeding.

Furthermore, Jesus made his comments because the people were attempting to take advantage of Him...not because they truly understood (or cared) about His message. I think it is clear that in Chicago, this Pastors message is being received and applied by the members of the church. You made the slight accusation that "he" (the pastor) is "bringing in" $40, 000 a week. The reality is...and it doesn't quite cast as much mud at the pastor as your terminology does...the church members are responding to this pastors teaching by tithing more to the church and its ministries. The people in this church aren't just sitting around waiting to be blessed, as the people in your verse quatation were. The people in this church are responding in a positive way to this pastors message of God First finances!!

[nikki1]

Axxman:

The scripture in John shows that Jesus did in fact use the gimmick though...right! He DID feed them, and they did follow Him...right? And then...he did preach to them right? Don't be critical of the person using the tools (or what you call a gimmick)...be critical of those who take the kindness in the wrong way. You wouldn't dare blame Jesus for blessing the people he fed...and yet you take the same scripture and use it to blame the pastor for blessing the people he's feeding.

Jesus never used any worldly gimmicks to draw in his followers to believe on him and receive eternal life. He did miracles to prove who he was, and he taught his followers from the Old Testament, and he rebuked certain ones using Old Testament Scripture. This has already been pointed out to you.

This particular message from Jesus is one of rebuke, Axxman, and is very plain to see it in Jesus' teaching.

These people saw the miracles, but only wanted what Jesus had to offer in the way of food to fill their belly

Moreover,

Jesus continues to say in the next verse Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you; for him hath God the Father sealed.

Pointing out the truth of scripture is not a condemnation of anyone, except maybe to those who may be under conviction or may find it offensive.

Paul preached "Christ crucified" to the lost.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness1:Corinthians 1:23

Jude also warned that there would be mockers in the last time:

But beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

The question to ask is why, in the first place would any pastor use a worldly gimmick to get people to come to his church, which amounts to nothing less than a lottery, instead of defending this worldly deception. This is just so anti-Gospel. Is he promoting Christ or his church? Obviously he is promoting his church. The church doesn't save anyone. Only the message of the risen Christ crucified can save sinners. He should be preaching the salvation Gospel message through Christ crucified, lifting Jesus up, salvation by grace through the blood of Christ, and going out into the community as Jesus and the early Christians taught and did. I do not believe that The Holy Spirit would tell a pastor to do something that is contrary to His written Word to get the unchurched in. This is something of the flesh and self, and not of God.

Feeding people that need food, or any other need can be done by other church ministries, but the congregation should be first; a pastor's primary concern is to tend to his flock's spiritual needs and what One Light scripturally pointed out awhile back in this thread. It's a fact that the unchurched will prey off of Christian churches when they need a free handout, or food or are hungry, or need a place to stay, but never set foot inside the church to become a part of or give back to the congregation I saw this in my own congregation, and my pastor put a stop to it. They didn't want any part of Jesus, and our Christ crucified message; except to feed their bellies. People were calling everyday until the churches food pantry had bare shelves.

Blessings,

Nikki

[Believer1997]

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves and were filled.John 6:26

I have recently read that instead of taking in up to $25,000 a week, he now brings in $40,000 a week. But,even a car salesman knows that once you start these worldly marketing schemes to keep the money and customers coming in, you have to out do the garage up the street, or the people will go there instead.

The scripture in John shows that Jesus did in fact use the gimmick though...right! He DID feed them, and they did follow Him...right? And then...he did preach to them right? Don't be critical of the person using the tools (or what you call a gimmick)...be critical of those who take the kindness in the wrong way. You wouldn't dare blame Jesus for blessing the people he fed...and yet you take the same scripture and use it to blame the pastor for blessing the people he's feeding.

Furthermore, Jesus made his comments because the people were attempting to take advantage of Him...not because they truly understood (or cared) about His message. I think it is clear that in Chicago, this Pastors message is being received and applied by the members of the church. You made the slight accusation that "he" (the pastor) is "bringing in" $40, 000 a week. The reality is...and it doesn't quite cast as much mud at the pastor as your terminology does...the church members are responding to this pastors teaching by tithing more to the church and its ministries. The people in this church aren't just sitting around waiting to be blessed, as the people in your verse quatation were. The people in this church are responding in a positive way to this pastors message of God First finances!!

Axx..

I had a hard time with this initially - but yes, I think that this is something that this pastor was lead to do for his flock. I'd love to know more of the insight he had to doing this, which on the outset seems so ... wrong - yet is helping people. We have families come to our church each week when there is a potluck meal to be served - and there are so many more of them than there used to be - I'm convinced it's because they need the meal! The food bank we sponsor with several other churches was nearly devastated a few weeks ago - we prayed and talked to many in the community and our shelves are full once again!!! We are able to minister to many who need the food - they are coming to church now and are part of our church family - I feel a change in our whole community - people who were just 'there' are now standing up and being counted! They are helping the outreach ministries and getting involved with the families we help. It's an amazing and positive change - I feel the Holy Spirit at work.