Tribulation Saints

[One Way]

You know One Way, I was going to jump in the fray, but after seeing how well you

[gypc]

Uh, if I'm not mistaken........no one gets saved during the great trib. If they do, please show me.

In his love.....

Brian

Plenty of people get saved during the GT:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Now man.....I'm not tryin to RILE ya! But that does not tell me that people get saved.

Rev9:20 "And the REST of the MEN which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands........"

Rev13:7 "And it was given unto to make war with the SAINTS and to overcome them:...."

Rev14:12 "Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that KEEP the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus"

The word of God does not contridict itself.......The REST of men didn't repent yet a little later there are SAINTS. If no one repents and there are SAInts, then where did they come from? The answer is clear!!!!!!!

But we will have to stop or this will turn into a pre-mid-post debate.

In his love,

Brian

[One Way]

Now man.....I'm not tryin to RILE ya! But that does not tell me that people get saved.

Rev9:20 "And the REST of the MEN which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands........"

Rev13:7 "And it was given unto to make war with the SAINTS and to overcome them:...."

Rev14:12 "Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that KEEP the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus"

The word of God does not contridict itself.......The REST of men didn't repent yet a little later there are SAINTS. If no one repents and there are SAInts, then where did they come from? The answer is clear!!!!!!!

But we will have to stop or this will turn into a pre-mid-post debate.

In his love,

Brian

Well, I surmise that some time passes between Rev 9 and Rev 14. I'm sure many months, since chapters 6-19 outline a 3 1/2 year period. I'll have to go back and dig in the Word, but I know that 15:2 is referencing believers that overcome by not taking the mark, etc. And, as you've seen in my previous post, the Church is not in the GT to begin with. But, since you don't acknowledge that, yet, let's take your point as it is.

Did you repent the very first time someone told you that you were a sinner? Probably not. (let's call that Rev 9)

Did you end up repenting later after a God-ordained chronology of events in your life? Likely.

So, if in Rev 9 the people did not repent, why couldn't they do it after God pours out more wrath and the people see many, many more people die due to the judgment of God?

Also, with all of the witnesses and evangelism going on, don't you think people would be getting saved?

I don't see a contradiction, but I'll look at that and give a more thorough response if one is necessary.

BTW, I believe that there were saints way before Rev 9. I believe that there will be saints immediately after the Church is raptured and the GT kicks off in Chapter 6. Many people who were witnessed to will see the great catching up/disappearance and will believe. I know many people that I have shared with. There are many people who will recognize a massive "Christian-disappearance" as just being too coincidential. I believe many of these people will repent and be saved in the GT. But, they do not become part of the Church. They are saved, yes, but they are not part of the Bride of Christ. You can see that, from my previous post, that the Bride of Christ sits with Christ on the throne, whereas the trib saints stand before the throne.

Plus, an understanding of Jewish marriage customs would help the scenario. It all fits so nicely. Wonderful how God works things out so fluently.

Blessings...

[eric]

BTW, I believe that there were saints way before Rev 9. I believe that there will be saints immediately after the Church is raptured and the GT kicks off in Chapter 6. Many people who were witnessed to will see the great catching up/disappearance and will believe. I know many people that I have shared with. There are many people who will recognize a massive "Christian-disappearance" as just being too coincidential. I believe many of these people will repent and be saved in the GT. But, they do not become part of the Church. They are saved, yes, but they are not part of the Bride of Christ. You can see that, from my previous post, that the Bride of Christ sits with Christ on the throne, whereas the trib saints stand before the throne.

Who is going to save the people that come to repent during during the GT if the Church along with the Holy spirit have gone. I have always understood that it is the H/S that convicts the unsaved to cause them to repent and seek forgiveness in order to reveive their salvation. During the tribulation it will be made mandatory to accept the mark of the beast or suffer the consequences. Too late to be saved then, despite Tim LaHaye's fiction.

[Guest LCPGUY]

BTW, I believe that there were saints way before Rev 9. I believe that there will be saints immediately after the Church is raptured and the GT kicks off in Chapter 6. Many people who were witnessed to will see the great catching up/disappearance and will believe. I know many people that I have shared with. There are many people who will recognize a massive "Christian-disappearance" as just being too coincidential. I believe many of these people will repent and be saved in the GT. But, they do not become part of the Church. They are saved, yes, but they are not part of the Bride of Christ. You can see that, from my previous post, that the Bride of Christ sits with Christ on the throne, whereas the trib saints stand before the throne.

Who is going to save the people that come to repent during during the GT if the Church along with the Holy spirit have gone. I have always understood that it is the H/S that convicts the unsaved to cause them to repent and seek forgiveness in order to reveive their salvation. During the tribulation it will be made mandatory to accept the mark of the beast or suffer the consequences. Too late to be saved then, despite Tim LaHaye's fiction.

Eric, my dear Bro,

during the trib, the holy Spirit will still be here and leading those willing to Christ. Only His restraining ministry will be removed. He was calling people to salvation, to faith, even in the early Old Testament days. But He did not have an indwelling ministry then like He does now. Those that are saved during the final 7 years are subject to things as they were prior to the resurrection, or should I say Pentecost.

Luv Ya Bro,

John Buoy

[One Way]

BTW, I believe that there were saints way before Rev 9. I believe that there will be saints immediately after the Church is raptured and the GT kicks off in Chapter 6. Many people who were witnessed to will see the great catching up/disappearance and will believe. I know many people that I have shared with. There are many people who will recognize a massive "Christian-disappearance" as just being too coincidential. I believe many of these people will repent and be saved in the GT. But, they do not become part of the Church. They are saved, yes, but they are not part of the Bride of Christ. You can see that, from my previous post, that the Bride of Christ sits with Christ on the throne, whereas the trib saints stand before the throne.

Who is going to save the people that come to repent during during the GT if the Church along with the Holy spirit have gone. I have always understood that it is the H/S that convicts the unsaved to cause them to repent and seek forgiveness in order to reveive their salvation. During the tribulation it will be made mandatory to accept the mark of the beast or suffer the consequences. Too late to be saved then, despite Tim LaHaye's fiction.

God has 144,000 witnesses on earth during the GT proclaiming the gospel. For what purpose??

Blessings...

[eric]

God has 144,000 witnesses on earth during the GT proclaiming the gospel. For what purpose??

For what purpose?......... To witness.

Only Christ has the power to grant Salvation, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit,

Witnesses have been around for nearly two thousand years. Every bible believing regenerated christian is a witness. I am. for one, but I haven't saved anyone yet.

John buoy,

But One way said in a previous post that the H/S went with the church during the rapture. He is in heaven with the church worshipping God where He belongs. What is left on earth are those who weren't interested in salvation, so that is why they were left behind, according to the pre-tribbers. So you are telling me that God is going to have a change of heart and send the H/S back to start over again to convict the unbelievers. They must be unbelievers or they would have gone with the rapture. So those who missed the rapture are going to get a second bite of the cherry and there will be another rapture to take them up to heaven. Nowhere in the bible can I comprehend two second comings

[One Way]

For what purpose?......... To witness.

Only Christ has the power to grant Salvation, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit,

Witnesses have been around for nearly two thousand years. Every bible believing regenerated christian is a witness. I am. for one, but I haven't saved anyone yet.

True statement. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. But, like John stated, people were saved before pentecost. If you read Luke 16 you will see many who died in faith, awaiting the promise of God.

The witnesses are here to witness. But, the salvation of souls is their goal.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Eric, doesn't it sound like there is a choice there? First we have witnesses proclaiming. Then, we have angels saying to "fear God, give glory to Him, and worship Him." And, we have another angel saying, "If any many worship him... or take his mark... the same shall drink of the wine of wrath..." Then, we see in Rev 15:2 those who did not take the mark or worship his image. What does 15:2 say about them? It says they "had gotten victory over the beast."

Remember, one thing about you and I as Christians, we fight FROM victory, not FOR it. Therefore, we are victors. These saints will "get victory."

John buoy,

But One way said in a previous post that the H/S went with the church during the rapture. He is in heaven with the church worshipping God where He belongs.

Actually, I don't recall stating that. But, I do believe that the Holy Spirit will be removed from this earth as He is resident in all believers. I believe this is what is spoken of here:

2Th 2:6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming

There are different interpretations of that passage, as it isn't self explanatory. Therefore, everyone without exception must infer WHO (I emphasized "WHO" because the verse says "HE," it is a person, not a thing) this restraining power is according to the end times scenario. If it said, "the Holy Spirit, which now restrains..." it would be crystal-clear, but unfortunately it does not say so that clearly. But, I find the HS to be the most obvious interpretation.

If you think it is referring to someone else, who do you think it is referring to and why?

I feel that the HS fits the scenario perfectly. Yes, eschatology is much like a jigsaw puzzle and we are here to put the pieces in place. I've examined different views, and this is the one that, to me, makes most sense biblically and intellectually. No hocus-pocus or stretching the passage is required in the pre-trib rapture view. It is all very literal.

Again, with all of the judgment and bowls, vials, etc. being meted out, and with all of the angels and witnesses, along with the 2 great witnesses preaching, there will be plenty of conviction. I don't see a problem there.

Judgment will be poured out and angels/witnesses will be saying to worship God and not take the mark. I think some people heed this call and they are seen in Rev 15:2.

But, I do believe also that there will be many people who cannot believe.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So, again, God's sovereignty is declared. Some are not in the book and thus they will worship the beast.

Anyways, I appreciate the question. I, by no means, have all of the answers and I don't want anyone to get the impression that I think I do. This topic has been debated for years and years, but for me personally, as I have studied, the pre-trib rapture is the only version that makes sense biblically and it is the only one in keeping with previously revealed character of God. Go back and look at God's previous judgments. The flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. You will find in both of them that FIRST God physically removed the righteous from harm's way before judgment came down.

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

The answer to this question from God was "NO." He would not destroy the righteous with the wicked, but would end up having Lot and his family physically removed before judgment COULD come down.

Gen 19:16 And while he lingered, the men (angels of the Lord) laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city (out of harms way).

Gen 19:22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

In Gen 19:22 the angel declares that he does not have the permission to bring judgment until God's righteous are safe.

Marvelous! Now, for those who chose not to come into the fold until the GT, there is a high cost to be paid. First, it will cost them their very lives becaue the AC will make war against them and overcome them (kill them). And, second and more importantly, they will not have the same position in the kingdom as the Church, the Bride of Christ, will. Remember, the Bride of Christ is found sitting with Christ on His throne, whereas the tribulation saints are found standing before the throne.

The Church is served by Christ, as He is the Bridegroom and we are the Bride (I serve my wife, do you?), but the tribulation saints are servants. There is a marked difference in the position between those who are the Bride of Christ and those who come to faith in the GT.

Blessings...