Revelation

[JohnS]

Looking back on prophecy and the fulfillment of prophecy, there was never a doubt. You didn't have to guess at what happened to fulfill a certain prophecy. Why do you think we moved from the realm of certainty to trying to fit events to Biblical passages? Last time I checked, millenium meant one thousand years.

[Guest Xan]

Now we are looking at two millenia, and I still see evil.

[JordanRiver]

First of all, the Bible didn't say anything about a millenium - it said a thousand years.  yes, I am aware they mean the same thing, but let's use Biblical terminologies.

Okay, the thousand years was in contrast to the short seasons - so in contrast a thousand years is like eternity.  Remember, this is from a symbolical standpoint.

And yes, there is still evil but it isn't

    a. Resulting from the Roman empire

    b. It's not QUITE as bad as it was.  It is still bad but have any of you seen your loved ones boiled in hot oil, crucified, burned with hot tar, or tortured because someone was trying to get you to deny God?  Yes, there is persecution and things that test the saints, but it isn't nearly as bad as it was.

I think the evil Revelation talks about is symbolic of that which the Roman Empire did.

[Guest Xan]

You're right, it's not as bad.  It's worse.  You don't see what goes on outside of America.  We are protected, but the Christians in other countries, primarily Africa and Muslim countries are tortured and murdered by the thousands.  There were more martyred saints in the year 2000 alone than there were during the entire Roman empire, and the numbers escalate yearly.

[JordanRiver]

K, you got me there - but Muslim and African countries are just a bunch of different countries - the Roman Empire controlled most of the known world, so it's hard to believe that a few Muslim and African countries are more brutal than the whole of the Roman Empire, but I believe you, anyway.

Anyway, I still stick to the point that the evil that was defeated was the Roman Empire - one of the greatest empires this world has ever seen, yet they fell.  They're not coming back, either.  Rome's still around, but it's empire is long gone.  Christian persecution has come back, but not the Roman empire.

[totallyuncommon]

Hi all!

Just thought I'd add my two cents to this thread.

Rev.1:1

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which gave unto Him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by His ange unto His servant John:"

The word "signified" does not mean using a symbol or symbolism.  It may mean that in the dictionary which is not a reliable source (a) because the bible was not written in English and (b) our language's words have changed meanings over time.

In order to get a clear understanding you have to look at the original language and its context.  The word translated in English as "signified" is the Greek word "semaino" which means to indicate, or in our understanding communicate.

The Revelation does contain some history.  Read if you will read chapter 12.  There it describes the woman who represents Israel giving birth to a son.  Then the serpent, the devil trying to destroy the child and the child is caught up to God.  Now the fact that the serpent had dragged down one third of the stars in heaven represents satan taking one third of the angels with him in his being cast from heaven which we know also has already happened. We know also that the  7 churches in Asia Minor which Jesus addresses were 7 literal churches, however they represent the church down through history and you can see all 7 of them within the church today.

Now, Jordon, for the most part the book is yet to be fulfilled I can sight many examples which you may spiritualize away, but one of the most blatant is that Israel has not returned to God, nor do they for the most part accept Jesus as the Messiah.  Even more blatant, where are the new heavens and the new earth, where is the heavenly new Jerusalem whose measurements are 1500 miles square?

You say that the Roman Empire has been destroyed completely, yet we see it rising from the so called ashes in the guise of the European Economic Union.  

I don't see how anyone can read the signs in Matt. 24:4-8, and say they don't see the birth pangs beginning to intensify.  I mean no offense, but you'd have to be deaf, dumb, blind, and foolish not to read the signs.

If all has been fulfilled then what is our blessed hope?  Where is the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ?

I'm sorry, but this truly smacks of dominionist theology that we will through our own human device set up God's Kingdom here on earth, and it is heresy.

Let us all be like the Bereans and search the scriptures daily.  And let us all learn,as the Apostle Paul admonished Timothy, to rightly divide the word of truth.

[JordanRiver]

As for the new heavens and the new earth, I think that was symbollic of the church.  

I'll get back to you on the other stuff

[Guest CofC preacher]

I think on this topic I will have to agree with Jordan

Rivers.  I beleive that Revelations is a book of history.

In the first verse of the whole book of Revelations, it says

"Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must SHORTLY come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John."

Here is a paraphrase of this verse:

The things writin in this book will happen shortly after they are told about.

This clearly means that the things in Revelations have already happened because it has been no short amount of time since Revelations has been writin.  Which would mean that the things in there have already happened.

-In Christ_

[Guest CofC preacher]

Imagsusman,

Gen 1:5  "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."  Here God says that one day is a morning and an evening.  So if a morning and an evening is equal to a thousand years, then from thetime i get on the bus every morning to the time i get home is about 347.4 years.   From the time I lay down in my bed to go to sleep to the time I wake up is 332.8 years.  That would also mean that I am almost 15,000 years old.  WOW!!!!! And I don't even have a beard yet.

Murjahel,

in verse 3 of the exact same chapter it says,

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

When he says that the stuff in this book are "at hand" that means they are near like your hand is to your body.  So not only did they "shortly come to pass", they were fulfilled close like your hand is to your body from the time they were professied

[totallyuncommon]

I see there is a great need to rightly divide the Word.

Even when some of you see what the original languages were portraying you still are stubborn and reject the truth.

In love, I correct you.  These things, for the most part,  have not come to pass.  You must learn to compare scripture with scripture, line upon line and precept upon precept-- and not with your preconceived ideas.