The stickiest wicket of 'em all

[kross]

Part of the problem here is with an overstatement of how God's sovereignty is represented in the Bible.

Sovereignty simply means that God is in control. In the Scriptures, God's sovereingnty is NEVER represented as meaning that every action or movement on Earth occurs because God willed it.

God's will has both a perfect and permissive side. God's perfect will commands us not to murder. Yet, God permits man to murder. God permits man the freedom to reject His commandment. God allows things to happen that He does not "Will" to happen.

Until the hyper-sovereignty nonsense is discarded, people will always be laying sin at God's doorstep and blaming him for every rape, molestation, war and any other act of oppression mankind can conceive of.

The hyper-sovereignty view pits God against His own commandments by claiming that God wills the very things He commands against. In effect, it misrepresents God as compromising His holiness.

People will blame GOD for what they want. That is no reason not to teach the truth.

While you see it that way, I do not.

[EricH]

B.B. First off I suggest you read

[Guest shiloh357]

People will blame GOD for what they want. That is no reason not to teach the truth.

Hyper-sovereignty is not "the truth." It is not biblical at all. It is an overstatement of what the Bible says about God's sovereignty.

[Bold Believer]

1. There is no such thing as free will. Adam was under authority and control from the day he was created. Just because it was not OVERBEARING control, doesn't mean it was not control.

"Adam, you may eat of any of the trees in the Garden.....EXCEPT (control) the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. IF you eat of it, you will surely die. (control again, penalty for disobedience.)

Adam obeyed and all was well. He knew his parameters.

2. Enter Satan, the anointed cherub who covered. He was perfect until unrighteousness was found in him. HOW DID IT GET THERE? I guess it just showed up out of the blue one day? Ha! NOT! It was placed there by Christ during the creation process to allow Satan to fulfill his role as THE ADVERSARY. God created the principle of evil, NOT evil deeds.

3. God stopped creating on the sixth day, Scripture is plain in that regard. Now, listen to the words of Christ Himself:

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This fire was prepared...created...for Satan and his angels. This means that it was created within the first six days as was everything else. GOD KNEW, BECAUSE HE PREPARED THE PUNISHMENT AHEAD OF TIME!

4. This does not make God responsible for any evil deeds committed merely because He created the principle of evil.

Rom 9:17-24 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

{even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God decided to make Satan for the VERY PURPOSE of being the adversary, and too bloody bad if we don't like it, BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. Satan never had a chance. He wasn't MEANT to have a chance. He was created for destruction, a vessel of wrath. We are not required to understand the WHY of it, we ARE required to accept it as being fact.

I venture to say as well that this applies to anyone who refuses to believe in Christ. If you don't believe...YOU WERE NOT MEANT TO. God hardened you, just like He hardened Pharoah. We are not required to understand why. Only that God created some to be 'vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.' Instead of having a fit over the fact that God created some for destruction, you should be praising God that He created you to be a vessel of mercy.

A hard thing to accept, but a fact nevertheless. You can't get around Romans 9.

5. Back to control. Satan was placed in the Garden. Why? FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF CORRUPTING ADAM, so that God's plan would go forth. God knew what would happen. There is nothing that surprises God. So when Adam sinned, he relinquished control from one Master to a second master. Adam was never free. Not at any point in time was Adam ever free. That doesn't mean that Adam was a puppet. It means that, much like the Roman soldier, Adam was a man under authority. The idea of 'free moral agency' is pure meadow muffins, there IS no such thing. To say that there is mocks the very idea of a God at all. It means that the inmates run the asylum and chaos reigns supreme; free moral agency makes Chaos the god of the universe, and that is not so. How can God punish anyone if he gave them free will to do whatever they like? Ridiculous. Preposterous. As soon as a limit was established and and a punishment determined, control was exerted.

[Guest shiloh357]

I venture to say as well that this applies to anyone who refuses to believe in Christ. If you don't believe...YOU WERE NOT MEANT TO. God hardened you, just like He hardened Pharoah.

The hardening of Pharoah by God occurred AFTER Pharoah hardened His own heart. God did not create Pharoah to destroy Him. After Pharoah hardened his heart, God use Pharoah's own hardness as a means to desmonstrate His power through Pharoah. God broke Pharoah against his own hardness of heart. Pharoah became a vessel fitted for destruction AFTER he finally and fully hardened His heart against God.

Only that God created some to be 'vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.'

The Bible does not say that. The Bible says that God creates some vessels for honor and dishonor. In Paul's potter metaphor, the potter can take the same lump of clay and create a beautiful vase or from the same lump of clay, He can create cereal bowl or bed pan. Some of us are for more noble use and others God has created for more mundane purposes.

The Bible does NOT say that God has fitted some vessels for destruction. That is an overstatemnet of what Romans 9 says. God does not create anyone to destroy them. Those who reject the gospel are vessels fitted for destruction, but not because God made them that way or created them only to destroy them. They have brought about that destruction by rejecting the gospel. They are prepared for destruction by virtue of their own decision against Christ.

Instead of having a fit over the fact that God created some for destruction, you should be praising God that He created you to be a vessel of mercy.

The problem is with the erroneous claim that God created people to destroy them.

A hard thing to accept, but a fact nevertheless. You can't get around Romans 9.

First, you need to actually exegete the chapter correctly. Romans 9 pertains to Paul's appeal to God's sovereignty regarding the hardness of the leaders in Israel and that God was no more unjust in using that hardness for His own purpose than He was in using Pharoah's hardness to bring about His purposes in Exodus.

Romans 9 is about God choosing whom He will for his purpose. It has NOTHING to do God choosing who will or will not be saved.

[EricH]

I venture to say as well that this applies to anyone who refuses to believe in Christ. If you don't believe...YOU WERE NOT MEANT TO. God hardened you, just like He hardened Pharoah.

The hardening of Pharoah by God occurred AFTER Pharoah hardened His own heart. God did not create Pharoah to destroy Him. After Pharoah hardened his heart, God use Pharoah's own hardness as a means to desmonstrate His power through Pharoah. God broke Pharoah against his own hardness of heart. Pharoah became a vessel fitted for destruction AFTER he finally and fully hardened His heart against God.

Only that God created some to be 'vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.'

The Bible does not say that. The Bible says that God creates some vessels for honor and dishonor. In Paul's potter metaphor, the potter can take the same lump of clay and create a beautiful vase or from the same lump of clay, He can create cereal bowl or bed pan. Some of us are for more noble use and others God has created for more mundane purposes.

The Bible does NOT say that God has fitted some vessels for destruction. That is an overstatemnet of what Romans 9 says. God does not create anyone to destroy them. Those who reject the gospel are vessels fitted for destruction, but not because God made them that way or created them only to destroy them. They have brought about that destruction by rejecting the gospel. They are prepared for destruction by virtue of their own decision against Christ.

There are 2 possible interpretations of this passage:

And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?

Romans 9:22 HCSB

The word that the HCSB tanslates as ready (bolded above) is the Greek participle katertismina meaning to prepare, create, or design (to make ready). It can be parsed as either a middle (they did it to themselves) or the passive (someone did it to them). The subject is clearly the vessles of wrath. The question is who is the one who did the preparing (the object)? The grammar is ambiguous. Your position appears to be that it was the vessels themselves by rejecting the gospel (middle). Others translate it as a passive and state that it was God that did it to them pointing to the strong parallel between this verse and 9:17-18 were God both raises Pharaoh up and hardens him.

Neither interpretation can claim high ground, in my opinion

[EricH]

I venture to say as well that this applies to anyone who refuses to believe in Christ. If you don't believe...YOU WERE NOT MEANT TO. God hardened you, just like He hardened Pharoah.

The hardening of Pharoah by God occurred AFTER Pharoah hardened His own heart. God did not create Pharoah to destroy Him. After Pharoah hardened his heart, God use Pharoah's own hardness as a means to desmonstrate His power through Pharoah. God broke Pharoah against his own hardness of heart. Pharoah became a vessel fitted for destruction AFTER he finally and fully hardened His heart against God.

This passage may create a slight issue for this interpretation:

So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

Romans 9:18 HCSB

There is a strong parallelism here in God's bestowal of mercy and His act of hardening. The implication seems to be that in the same way God shows mercy, He also hardens. The position you have stated above relative to God's hardening seems to be that it is conditioned on the persons actions in some way. That they earn their hardening. However, in this passage it seems that God's mercy does not operate in this manner:

So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.

Romans 9:16 HCSB

The example of God's choosing Jacob over Esau before birth demonstrates that God's choice (or mercy) was unconditional and not based on anything Jacob or Esau did. So if the parallelism in 9:18 is the be honored, we have to say that however God's hardening operates it must be consistent with how His mercy operates. If we posit that hardening is earned, we must also posit that God mercy is as well (based on 9:18). In my opnion, 9:16 does not allow us to land there. The passage specifically states that God's mercy is not based on anything people do. So to honor the paralleism, we must also land there in terms of the hardening. Neither are "earned".

If that is the case, there must be another consideration.

[Guest shiloh357]

This passage may create a slight issue for this interpretation:

So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

Romans 9:18 HCSB

That does not change the fact that Pharoah had already hardened His heart before God gave him over to his own hardness.

There is a strong parallelism here in God's bestowal of mercy and His act of hardening. The implication seems to be that in the same way God shows mercy, He also hardens.

That is true.

The position you have stated above relative to God's hardening seems to be that it is conditioned on the persons actions in some way. That they earn their hardening. However, in this passage it seems that God's mercy does not operate in this manner:

So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.

I did not say or imply that he "earned His hardness." Rather God hardened what had already been hardened. God gave him over to it. The sun hardens clay and melts wax. Both experience the same heat. God does not predetermine how people will respond to Him.

The example of God's choosing Jacob over Esau before birth demonstrates that God's choice (or mercy) was unconditional and not based on anything Jacob or Esau did. So if the parallelism in 9:18 is the be honored, we have to say that however God's hardening operates it must be consistent with how His mercy operates. If we posit that hardening is earned, we must also posit that God mercy is as well (based on 9:18). In my opnion, 9:16 does not allow us to land there. The passage specifically states that God's mercy is not based on anything people do. So to honor the paralleism, we must also land there in terms of the hardening. Neither are "earned".

God's choice of Jacob over Esau was unconditional. That is true. But it is not true that God's hardening of Pharoah was not in response to Pharoah's own stubbornness. Pharoah had a fair opportunity to obey.

Again, no one is talking about "earning" anything. God's hardening was in response to Pharoah's own stubborn refusal to obey. It would not, in any objective sense, be considered just for God to demand obedience of a person while at the same time making it impossible for that person to obey. That does not glorify God.

[Bold Believer]

Shiloh said:

The Bible does NOT say that God has fitted some vessels for destruction. That is an overstatemnet of what Romans 9 says. God does not create anyone to destroy them. Those who reject the gospel are vessels fitted for destruction, but not because God made them that way or created them only to destroy them. They have brought about that destruction by rejecting the gospel. They are prepared for destruction by virtue of their own decision against Christ.

The Scripture says:

Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

They were made ready for destruction, if you want to choose that understanding of the word. It makes no difference at all. Prepared, made ready...all the same. Try this one: INTENDED. When presented with the truth, perhaps multiple times, they reject it in favor of their own devices and desires. What does this say? That they were meant to reject. Their continued rejection shows that they were intended for destruction. Now if they were never presented with the truth, THEN you would have a case to say God was unjust. But such is not the case. Even if they never hear the Gospel, they are still judged by the light they have.

If I make a meal ready to be eaten, am I not preparing it? Your analogy holds no water. I would venture to say that anyone who has ever come to the understanding of total sovereignty has wrestled with Romans 9 the most. The words are still there. They mean what they say. God is putting up with (enduring) the vessels of destruction for the sake of the vessels of mercy.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Scripture says:

Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

They were made ready for destruction, if you want to choose that understanding of the word. It makes no difference at all. Prepared, made ready...all the same.

I am not interested is parsing over words. The point I am making is that God is not the one who prepares any one for destruction according to to Romans 9.

Try this one: INTENDED. When presented with the truth, perhaps multiple times, they reject it in favor of their own devices and desires. What does this say? That they were meant to reject. Their continued rejection shows that they were intended for destruction.

That is patently absurd. There is no biblical support for such assertion. The Bible never presents any rejection of the gospel as "intended" by God. That is not even the intent of this chapter.

Now if they were never presented with the truth, THEN you would have a case to say God was unjust. But such is not the case. Even if they never hear the Gospel, they are still judged by the light they have.

If I make a meal ready to be eaten, am I not preparing it? Your analogy holds no water.

Which analogy are you referring to?? Yes if make a meal you are preparing it. But that misses the point. A person becomes a vessel prepared for destruction if harden their hearts against the Lord. Paul uses Pharoah as an example of this. God did force Pharoah to disobey.

I would venture to say that anyone who has ever come to the understanding of total sovereignty has wrestled with Romans 9 the most. The words are still there. They mean what they say. God is putting up with (enduring) the vessels of destruction for the sake of the vessels of mercy.

That is not what the text says:

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

(Rom 9:22)

Where does it say it was "for the sake of the vessels of mercy?" Having a biblical discussion is made easier when you correctly cite Scripture. I have no interest in debating with you over your incorrect recollections of what the Bible says.

The Bible's remarks about sovereignty NEVER extend to who is or is not chosen to be saved.