Clarification on OT/NT Laws

[Guest yod]

The Christian faith is not about the shadows of Judaism that were rendered redundant at the cross.

you just keep talking to that straw man...

The christian faith started with the jews. Sorry if that bothers you

I am not bothered at all by the fact that Jesus was born and Jew and died a Jew nor am I bothered that salvation was given to the Jew first. But that does not change the reality the some cannot let go of the shadows of Judaism after repeated warning by the writers of the NT. What appears to bother you is the Lord took the kingdom away from the nation of Israel because of her unbelief

[Guest yod]

Therefore I say to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing out its fruits. And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

(Mat 21:43-44 MKJV)

The key to this verse is

1. who is talking and to whom

Since Yeshua doesn't mention any names, you are speculating that He means this to ALL jews for ALL time?

Do you not see how ridiculous of a liar God would be if that were so????

It contradicts the rest of the scriptures but fits your agenda perfectly so that is what you'll go with, eh?

I could just as easily say he was talking to horizoneast and my speculation would be as valid as yours.

[Guest yod]

The kingdom was taken from the nation of Israel and God has replaced the physical nation of Israel with a new

[Guest yod]

really? And where is that chapter and verse which states this since your opinion of who He is talking to contradicts the rest of the scriptures?

Let me know when you find it but read a couple of these while you're looking....and reconcile how Paul got it so wrong.

Paul got nothing wrong

[Guest yod]

Obviously, you didn't check your opinions against the Word so I'll post the ultimate authority on this issue. So others can understand the debate, I have bolded the verse which you say turns gentiles into "true jews" somehow.

Romans 2 - The Jews and the Law (BTW, this is the way the NIV sums up the chapter, not me)

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth

[Guest yod]

Are you still going to try and assert that Paul is speaking to gentiles here? It should be obvious that he is only saying that a jew isn't saved by virtue of being jewish.

Just presenting the truth friend

[lekh l'kha]

God only has ONE holy nation and that ONE nation is the church of God

[Guest yod]

Lech,

it's pointless trying to help someone who is as intellectually dishonest as what has just been displayed. Someone who refuses to look, will never see.

I pray for the breaking that God gives us all to happen swiftly and mercifully.

[lekh l'kha]

Lech,

it's pointless trying to help someone who is as intellectually dishonest as what has just been displayed. Someone who refuses to look, will never see.

I pray for the breaking that God gives us all to happen swiftly and mercifully.

God help us. But it's not only for horizoneast's sake that I post - it's for the sake of all those who become confused by his doctrinal and theological error and as a result are blinded to most of the scripture - especially the prophetic scripture regarding what is coming. I read an intersting statement on the Prophetic Scroll ( http://www.thepropheticscroll.org/home/index.php ) yesterday:

(Quote)

"There's a lot to be said for 'last words'. I want to share with you a very interesting true story. Brother Derek Prince, whom I consider one my spiritual fathers, died at about 90 a few years ago. He was arguably the greatest Zionist Christian of modern times. He was British, with his ministry headquartered in the US, but he lived in Jerusalem. He had an extremely profound, radical and prolific ministry, which started in the Second World War. He was loved, adored and hated by the traditionalists. Thousands of people carried his coffin down the streets of Jerusalem. I actually met him in the 1970s.

Just before he died, a US senator visited him and asked him what he believed was the main thing God was doing now. Brother Derek struggled for breath and said, " He is restoring Israel and the Jews and starting to judge the nations of the world. He then slipped into eternity.

Many times I have been left with his profound words ringing in my head for ages afterwards. When I heard this, these words rang loud and clear and still are!

If God is starting to restore the Jews and Israel now, be very sure that the nations of the world will determine their own destiny by how they respond to God's work. This principle is just as valid for the individual.

If I may add one thing to Brother Derek's words: The Bible declares that judgement begins in the house of God. So yes God is restoring Israel, starting to judge the nations AND He is now starting to judge the church. Part of His judgement on the church (only the lukewarm and non-spirit filled churches) is to withdraw His Spirit and let them continue in their own strength motivated by the spirit of the world.

The leadership of many churches today IS the judgement of God on lukewarm Christians!

This entire issue of the salvation of the Jews and the land of Israel on the one hand and replacement theology on the other hand will be a fence of division rising higher and higher. Those on the side of Gods work will go on in glory, while those on the other side will grow in deception as they work for and with the devil." (unquote)

So it's not only for the sake of horizoneast, but for the sake of anyone who becomes confused by all this false doctrine and theology regaarding Israel and the church that I say to horizoneast:

For goodness sake, horizoneast, MOST of the Israelites perished in the wilderness in unbelief and did not enter into the promised land under the leadership of Joshua, but A REMNANT was saved and entered in.

Many Gentiles became joined to this nation over time through their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but this did not mean that "the Israel of God" ever ceased to exist as "the Israel of God".

It has been the same since the first coming of ISRAEL'S Messiah, Joshua (Y'hoshua or Yeshua) - MOST of the "Israel of God" have been wandering in a spiritual wilderness in unbelief - but again, A BELIEVING REMNANT was saved (and there has been a remnant in each generation since Christ's crucifixion), and believing Gentiles are grafted into "the Israel of God" AMONG THE REMNANT.

Together, the believing remnant + the believing Gentiles make up the temple ("the Church"), and HERE IS THE PASSAGE WHERE PAUL TEACHES IT CLEARLY, STRIPPED OF ALL FALSE DOCTRINE AND THEOLOGY WHICH TWISTS IT TO MEAN "THE CHURCH IS THE ISRAEL OF GOD":

"Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, He making us both one, and He has broken down the middle wall of partition between us, having abolished in His flesh the enmity (the Law of commandments contained in ordinances) so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, making peace between them; and so that He might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity in Himself. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off, and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:11-22)

It is clear that Paul states that believing Gentiles are now fellow-citizens WITH the saints (WITH the believing remnant of ethnic Israel among whom we have been grafted into Israel, as Paul states in Rom.11: 1-5, 17), and that TOGETHER, we make up the temple ("the Church"). But the Church is NOT Israel - it's the temple of Israel, which is the temple of God.

What's more, the time is coming soon when the following PROPHECY of Paul is going to be fulfilled:

"For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

Blindness in part has not happened to "the Church" - it's happened to the rest of ethnic Israel (the seed that have been broken off), and ungodliness (unbelief) does not have to be turned away from the temple - it has to be turned away from JACOB.

"For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins." Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election (of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's physical seed), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as you (Gentiles) also then (in times past) disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief, even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy. For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" (Rom 11:25-33)

This is GOD'S WORD to Abraham, which false theology cannot change:

"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to you and to your seed after you. And I will give the land to you in which you are a stranger, and to your seed after you, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession. And I will be their God." (Gen 17:7-8)

"And God said, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son indeed. And you shall call his name Isaac. And I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him." (Gen 17:19)

1. God DID NOT make the everlasting covenant promises with the "many nations" which he said Abraham would become the father of (because of believing Gentiles being grafted into Israel) - He made the covenant with the ethnic nation descended through ISAAC AND JACOB.

2. Isaac WAS NOT A SPIRITUAL BEING - he was a man made of flesh, and so are his descendants - the covenant was made WITH FLESH, but unlike God making an everlasting covenant with ALL FLESH in the days of Noah following the flood, THIS covenant was made ONLY with the ethnic descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

3. Just as it was in the days of Moses and Joshua, so it was in the days of Jesus - ONLY A REMNANT of the erthnic nation - "the Israel of God", was saved - and believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel among that remnant.

[Guest shiloh357]

If you were to remove the blinders found in your