Clarification on OT/NT Laws

January 9, 2010

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jan 9 2010, 07:01 AM)
Yes, but "Israel" is not defined in Scripture as being the seed of Abraham.

Are you saying the nation of Israel is not (was not) the seed of Abraham?

No, what I am saying is that the Bible defines Israel as the descendents of Abraham continuing through Issac and Jacob. Ishamael was the seed of Abraham too, but is not included with Israel. Israel comes through Jacob.

Since Christians are not the descended from Jacob, they are disqualified from being "Israel." Jacob has no descendents by faith. Gentile Christians are the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Jacob, thus they are not "spirtual Jews" or "spiritual Israel" or any other bogus concept you can concoct.

ALL who call upon the name of the Lord are fellow citizens of the household of God - both groups are one in the commonwealth of Israel, i.e., the Israel of God.

No. The Israel of God and the commonwealth of Israel are not interchangable terms. They are not the same. Australians are not British nor are they considered part of England although they are part of the English commonwealth. Gentiles are joined to Israel, but they are not Jews nor are they Israelites.

the physical nation of Israel rejected her Messiah and God took the kingdom away from her and gave it to a new "holy nation" - the church of God - the *spiritual* Israel of God made up of Jew and Gentile saved "in Him".

Sorry, but the Bible does not say that. He took the Kingdom away from corrupt "husbandmen" and gave it to new husbmandmen (Matt. 21:40-41). Believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel, but do not replace it. Israel of God ONLY refers to physical Jews, and is never applied to Gentiles.

You can quote your favorite commentators all day long, but the fact remains that the Bible does not say that God has rejected Israel and replaced it with a New Israel. The fact remains that Gentiles are included in God's covenants with Israel by faith, but they do not replace Israel.

To claim that God "replaced Israel with a new Israel defies the olive tree metaphor of Rom. 11. Your view would require God to replace the old olive tree with a new one, which is not how Paul relates it. The olive tree in Paul's illustration is biblical Israel and Gentiles are grafted into it. They do not replace it.

Is the church of God a *spiritual kingdom*? Have Christians become the *spiritual* temple of God?

Yes, but they are not Israel. Paul is simply using temple imagery as a metaphor.

All (as in everyone

January 10, 2010

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jan 9 2010, 05:14 PM)
Since Christians are not the descended from Jacob, they are disqualified from being "Israel."

January 10, 2010

Jesus clearly said the kingdom of God was to be taken away from the Jews and given to a new holy nation was directed against each and every Jew who through unbelief rejected their Messiah.

Sorry but that is not what Jesus said. The parable was against the husbandmen, not against the nation, and the Bible bears that out.

You wont' directly reference the parable because you cannot provide any exegesis to prove your point. Jesus was not addressing the nation. It was conversation limited to a particular audience and to his judgment on that audience, not the nation. Even the parable itself bears out that the "nation" referred to His apostles as "new husbandmen."

There is no judgment EVER pronounced on the vineyard. Read the parable: It is not the vineyard that rejected the son of the master. It was not the vineyard that killed the son of the master. The owner of the vineyard did not reject the vineyard. The owner did not take the vineyard away from the grapes. Rather the owner's wrath was solely against the husbamen that killed his son. The husbandmen were the object of the owner's wrath. The owner of the vineard(vv. 40-41) took the vineyard away from the evil husbandmen and leased it out to new husbandmen.

There is NO way you can say that this parable means that God has rejected Israel. as a nation, as the parable simply does not support that assertion.