Restoration of the Church

[~Shalhevet~]

Isaiah 58:11-12 The Lord will guide you always; he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail. Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.

What is your take on this scripture?

Do you believe the church has been restored, is currently being restored, or has yet to be restored?

What is the reference to "ancient ruins" and "age-old foundations" mean?

[EricH]

The setting for this passage was the end of the reign of Xerxes. The conditions in Israel had deteriorated and government control was almost non existent. When Artaxerxes came to power (465-458 B.C.) there was hope for reform. Jerusalem and the temple are actually rebuit during this time. It is in this context that true worshippers of God are called to come and engage in true worship.

Isaiah 58 addresses fasting. God not only desires us to engage in the discipline of fasting, true worship adds to that humility, justice, and repentance. The ruins being talked about here are the ruins of Jerusalem and the temple.

[~Shalhevet~]

Act 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

[Guest yod]

Act 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

that is speaking of the restoration of Israel...which is the beginning of the newer heavens and newer "aretz" (literally means "land" but is translated as "earth")

Here's the key to understanding the Bible.

Israel means "the land of Israel/the sons of Jacob" and never does it mean anything else.

Forget Matthew Henry commentaries and don't force the the bible say something it doesn't say. There is, in truth, no such thing as "the church" (as defined since the 2nd century) mentioned in the bible whatsoever. That is a post-biblical (and quite intentional) error of translation that causes all kinds of contradictions of interpretation.

[~Shalhevet~]

I apologize my difficulty in understanding you. Are you meaning to say that the church will not be restored until the return of our Messiah?

[Guest yod]

I apologize my difficulty in understanding you. Are you meaning to say that the church will not be restored until the return of our Messiah?

Where do you get the idea that the church will be "restored" at all?

The "church" as we know it today is defined as "a specifically christian religious organization separate from Israel". That is a post-biblical invention because you won't find any place in the scriptures where such a thing is mentioned.

Paul clearly states that the nations/gentiles are joined to the remnant of Israel. We, gentile christians, are a sub-set of the remnant of Israel, so it is Israel that will be restored at His return.

[Rick-Parker]

Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (KJV)

Matthew 18:17: "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (KJV)

Acts 2:47: "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (KJV)

These are just 3 of the 76 time that the Church is talked about in the NT.

[Guest yod]

He came that we would have faith in the God of Israel....not a religious system with a hierarchy of men separated from the laity.

When I say things like that, if you didn't know me better, you might think that I'm anti-church....but let me assure you that I'm not. I am pro-community!

If there is anything I'm against it's a humanistic religioun because of the difference between that and a community of people who love God and each other.

Obviously there is such a thing as a specifically christian religious organization that makes a separation from Israel today called "the Church". Many churches make that separation by claiming themselves to be Israel, which delegitimizes the jewish people having an inheritance whether they realize it or not. But even many churches that have a love for Israel read the scriptures as if our fate is unattached to Israel's because of this translation.

I'm not unaware of the obvious, nor am I hostile towards the Church. It's wise to have men and women dedicated to serving saints in teaching or praise music or counseling or prayer any of the wonderful things our local congregations do.

I'm just pointing out that we do that particular program because it's how we, christians, have decided would be best. There is no holy commandment that says we must meet in a building on Sunday for an hour or two and perform rituals and liturgy...and then give money for having received an inspirational speech and some praise music.

We meet because we want to be with each other or it's vanity. We give because the love of God compels us to give, or it has no eternal value whatsoever. We love because God has given us a measure of grace to be able to love. We gather because we want to gather with other saints or it's a total waste of time that could be better spent watching Dallas Cowboys reruns instead.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Compulsory attendance of a religious establishment is found nowhere in the bible yet by translating words that actually mean "community" or "large gathering" or "meeting place" into the word "church", christians have been conditioned to think it's there. And this is what gives people the notion that God is satisfied by our church attendance somehow. Some even think that it's all He requires!? (Not saying that about anyone here specifically though, ok?)

All that aside, our separation from Israel through the usage of this translational error is the root of why we don't live in community already, imo. We, the gentiles, made our own religious institution and called it "the church" and it was supreme once Israel was literally destroyed by the Romans.

And now, as long everything revolves around "us" (christianity), then it's hunky dory

But I believe that the way 12 Apostles changed the world was through community and we've lost sight of our Lord's intent (john 17) at least partly because of the way these words have been translated.

What we need are communities of people in relationship to each other instead of a large audience being preached at.

[Rick-Parker]

I think I'll stick with the King James Version. And I don't take "church" in the strictest sense of the word. "Community," "gathering" and/or "congregation" are easily interchanged with "church." After all, the "Church" is a community of Christians, and a gathering of Christians, and a congregation of Christians. It has nothing to do with Catholicism, as you claim. Statements like that, IMO, are what divide the "Church."

[Botz]

That is the translation, yes, but it isn't what the original language says or intends to say. That translation was forced upon translators of the KJV, and William Tyndale was burned at the stake rather than doing that.

Substitute the words community, gathering, or congregation in every place where you see "church" and you will get the right translation. Those words have no religious connotation to them but by translating those words to be "church" you are reading into the verses something that isn't actually there. Instead of seeing "community of faithful people joined to the remnant of Israel" you are seeing "a specifically christian religious institution separate from Israel"

That might seem like a small difference at first glance but it caused one of the largest tragedies in history, namely the separation of jews and gentiles in the community of faith. That led to tacit endorsement of anti-semitism in the church (the specifically christian religious organization that was now separated from Israel).

Once that was accomplished a new religion was established with it's headquarters in Rome and men at the top of this new religious institution began presuming to speak for God. It's been mostly downhill since then, imo.

Do you honestly think that Jesus came to start a new "religion"? Did He ever intend to start a "religion" in the first place? What was the name of the "religion" He endorsed?

He came that we would have faith in the God of Israel....not a religious system with a hierarchy of men separated from the laity.

Couldn't agree more bro. If only we Believers in the Jewish Messiah would look at the history of our genesis without the blinkers on, maybe it would sink in.