Trinity

[Botz]

Shiloh...Well, to be fair to the Council of Nicea, not everything that was decided there was necessarily bad, as they also established that the Scriptures held to the Deity of Jesus. Yet, in spite of some good things that were decided, there was also a very dark side to this gathering.

I am not in any way justifying Constantine, as I am not really convinced the man was a genuinely saved follower of Christ given his stated hatred of Jews, whom he referred to as "vermin."

I hear what you are saying, and is something I have always born in mind...I would be very interested if you have any information on whether in the early Church (pre-Nicean council) there was more an emphasis of the Oneness of G-d amongst Jewish Believers, and more of a tendency to stress the three Persons revealed in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost by the Gentile Believers.

I was just thinking along the lines of tradition...because when a Jew came to faith in Yeshua...his history would have stressed the Oneness of G-d, and the words of the Sh'ma would have been ever on their lips....whereas the Gentile who came to faith, would have been well used to gods in various forms, and therefore the concept of the Trinity teaching would be far easier to appropriate.

[traveller]

Shiloh...Well, to be fair to the Council of Nicea, not everything that was decided there was necessarily bad, as they also established that the Scriptures held to the Deity of Jesus. Yet, in spite of some good things that were decided, there was also a very dark side to this gathering.

I am not in any way justifying Constantine, as I am not really convinced the man was a genuinely saved follower of Christ given his stated hatred of Jews, whom he referred to as "vermin."

I hear what you are saying, and is something I have always born in mind...I would be very interested if you have any information on whether in the early Church (pre-Nicean council) there was more an emphasis of the Oneness of G-d amongst Jewish Believers, and more of a tendency to stress the three Persons revealed in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost by the Gentile Believers.

I was just thinking along the lines of tradition...because when a Jew came to faith in Yeshua...his history would have stressed the Oneness of G-d, and the words of the Shma' would have been ever on their lips....whereas the Gentile who came to faith, would have been well used to gods in various forms, and therefore the concept of the Trinity teaching would be far easier to appropriate.

Shma' ?

Very interesting thread, fellas.

[Botz]

Sh'ma or shema begins ....

Sh'ma Yis'ra'el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One

It is the main thing taught in Jewish Yeshivas (religious schools) against their misunderstanding of the Trinity, which they teach seeks to lead people to acknowledge a set of three false gods.

I agree Trav...very interesting thread

[ps I edited the word shma' and corrected it to sh'ma...I had a block when writing it)

[CAP73]

Wow, I'm glad I asked this question. What an education. Thanks guys!

[Tigerstar Truth Seaker]

Hello everyone, I am new to the forum, but I am glad I dropped by. I have been a Christian amd student of the Scriptures for just over 10 years. I also attend Liberty University School of Religion. Recently I have devoted a lot of studies to the doctrine of the Trinity. Mostly inspired by some people I know or interact with who make claims such as "if one does not believe in the Trinity, they are apostate, and hell bound, blinded by Satan." I used to sugest the same thing, but recently I would think twice before damning someone to Hell for denying the Trinity.

Did Jesus indeed teach that He was part of a Trinity?

John 17 records Jesus' prayer to the Father: "Father, the hour has come, Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as YOU have GIVEN HIM AUTHORITY over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as YOU have GIVEN HIM. And this is eternal life, that they may KNOW YOU, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent. I have glorified You on Earth, I have finished the work which YOU have given ME to do." [emphasis mine, NKJV]

Jesus uses very strong personal language, and John records it under the Divine influence of God. If Jesus wanted to make a clear statement about His being a part of a Triune Godhead, wouldn't this have been a key place to suggest that?

Or, to prevent confusion, wouldn't this have been a good opportunity to inject who He was in relation to the "Only True God"?

If Jesus was just a man at this moment, like we have been taught under the Trinity Doctrine, and that as a man He had to pray to the Father, then would this not be a contradiction? If Jesus was in fact, as we say, "fully God and fully Man", then by His own words was He denouncing Himself as the "True God"?

And finally, does Jesus suggest that His power over life came from the Only True God, or Himself?

Someone pointed out [which I was familiar with already] where Jesus tells Thomas, "you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" or "I and the Father are one" but can't this be easily understood in light of Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is the "brightness, express image, reflection" of the Father? All the fullness of Deity dwells in Him?

Next, did Paul instruct the early Churches they must believe in a Trinity?

In his letter to the Church growing in Corinth, he says: "we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on Earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we live." [1 Cor 8:4-6, NKJV]

Paul was instructing about eating things that were offered to "idols" or false gods, for the Greeks and Romans had many false gods. Paul had the prime oppertunity to inject that Jesus WAS indeed the One True God, but he instead says the Father. Jesus is then added as our Lord [which means master or ruler]. In light of all the pagan gods floating around in Rome at this time, Paul should have taken this oppertunity to make sure his readers would acknowledge Jesus as the One True God as well, but instead he points to the Father alone.

Was Paul mistaken? Does what Paul and Jesus say go against what the Athanasian Creed states: "He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity."

Did Paul and Jesus believe and/or teach that one must think of the Triniry to be saved?

Did the man on the cross next to Jesus think of the Trinity?

Finally, in the heavenly scene in Revelation chapters 4 and 5, we see the Father being worshiped and called Lord God Almighty, we see Jesus as a slain Lamb, who recieves the scroll from the One sitting on the throne. There is plenty of praise in Heaven, but never is there any directed to the Holy Spirit. Never is the Holy Spirit seen as a "person".

Where we do see mention of the Holy Spirit, he is called the "Seven Lamps" burning before the throne, and then again the Lamb has seven horns, seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God. It seems like the "Spirits" belong to God, just as man has a spirit, but God's Spirit is perfect, and often depicted in sevens. Does this mean the Trinity would include God the Father, God the Son, and God the Seven Spirits of the Holy Spirit?

In his commentary on Revelation chapter 5, John MacArthur points that "the Holy Spirit in His sevenfold glory are all present." Does this mean that the Holy Spirit Himself is more than a Trinity, but a Seven-ity?

Just some thought provoking questions about the Scriptures. And if Jesus is NOT the same "Only True God- The Father" then who is He? How can He be called God, but not be a false God, or break the words of YHWH in Isaiah 43:10 "Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me".

Edited December 24, 2009 by Tigerstar Truth Seaker

[Botz]

Hello Tigerstar, welcome to Worthy...may the L-rd encourage you and direct you by His Spirit.

I do not have enough time on my hands right now to answer some of the things you have written...but I would venture to say that it is precisely the things you mention that must have made people thrash out the doctrine of the Trinity...because although I do not promote the Trinity, or seek to continuously subject others to its overall efforts, I certainly recognise the truths this doctrine high-lights and seeks to clarify and protect from the ignorant, the wolves and the antagonists.

The way that Jesus demonstrates exactly who He is, both to His disciples and to the world is done in a typical Jewish way, and is made far more powerful and eye-opening, than if He tried to hammer it home....As I said I would love to give some direct answers to some of the things you have written, but I will leave it to others to take up the reins, as what you hit upon certainly needs addressing from Scripture. In Messiah. Botz

[traveller]

Sh'ma or shema begins ....

Sh'ma Yis'ra'el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.

Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One

It is the main thing taught in Jewish Yeshivas (religious schools) against their misunderstanding of the Trinity, which they teach seeks to lead people to acknowledge a set of three false gods.

I agree Trav...very interesting thread

[ps I edited the word shma' and corrected it to sh'ma...I had a block when writing it)

Ah - Deuteronomy 6. Now I gotcha. thanks Brother.

[Guest yod]

This is one of the most pointless arguments in the Kingdom of God.

Those who know Yeshua, know exactly who He is. Those who don't, won't understand anyway.

[Tigerstar Truth Seaker]

This is one of the most pointless arguments in the Kingdom of God.

Those who know Yeshua, know exactly who He is. Those who don't, won't understand anyway.

Thats a cheap way out, and one without speaking "Truth in Love". Even the Mormons claim to know who Jesus is.

[Rick-Parker]

This has probably been said on this thread, but it bears repeating, IMO. 1 John 5:7-8 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."