Trinity

[Guest yod]

This is one of the most pointless arguments in the Kingdom of God.

Those who know Yeshua, know exactly who He is. Those who don't, won't understand anyway.

Thats a cheap way out, and one without speaking "Truth in Love". Even the Mormons claim to know who Jesus is.

They can claim it all day long but that doesn't make it so. The error they make isn't in the claim of knowing Jesus but in claiming a jesus who contradicts the Tenach (The Law, The Prophets, and the wisdom writings). There are multiplied groups (christian and otherwise) who do the same, btw.

here is the truth in love:

NO MORTAL HUMAN can explain God. It is arrogance to try and define Him and then insist that everyone agree with our definition. I affirm what the Bible says; nothing more, nothing less. I will not go to the right nor the left.

I do not affirm the Trinity doctrine. I believe it adds to and subtracts from what the Bible says. I can find no place in the scriptures where an affirmation of this doctrine is necessary for salvation or for daily living, and no one in the scriptures spent any time teaching this "doctrine" as if it were necessary or important.

In other words, the triune nature of God is evident in the scriptures without creating a theological premise which must also be acknowledged

This is what I know to be absolutely true: He is God and we are not.

The mechanics of how the relation works between Father and Son and Holy Spirit and the Word and the water, and the blood will revealed completely and perfectly at a time of His choosing. I can wait on those details.

1 John 5:7-8 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one

What? No mention of Jesus? Does this verse mean there are SEVEN IN ONE???

[Rick-Parker]

Jesus is the Word. But you already know that.

[Smalcald]

Right Jesus is the Word.

1 John 5, says that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God are equal and are one being.

Now the details about all of that; well I agree with Yod about, it is beyond our human understanding why tear each other up about it.

As long as we agree that the three are One we are fine as John so clearly points out. If people are not comfortable calling that the "trinity

[Tigerstar Truth Seaker]

This has probably been said on this thread, but it bears repeating, IMO. 1 John 5:7-8 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Just thought I would add a thought... concerning 1 Jn 5:7, The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome's original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it. The first person to quote it is a Spanish heretic called Priscillian who died in A. D. 385. Thereafter it crept gradually into the Latin texts of the New Testament although, as we have seen, it did not gain an entry to the Greek manuscripts.

[Rick-Parker]

I am amazed that there are many who are willing to challenge the veracity of the Bible being given by the Holy Spirit; that the Holy Spirit would allow God's Word to be changed, it's meaning to be changed, its reliability to be called into question, that it has somehow caused error and been corrupted. And not only on this thread. If that is not what is occurring, then please explain to me what exactly is happening.

[Botz]

This is one of the most pointless arguments in the Kingdom of God.

Those who know Yeshua, know exactly who He is. Those who don't, won't understand anyway.

Thats a cheap way out, and one without speaking "Truth in Love". Even the Mormons claim to know who Jesus is.

They can claim it all day long but that doesn't make it so. The error they make isn't in the claim of knowing Jesus but in claiming a jesus who contradicts the Tenach (The Law, The Prophets, and the wisdom writings). There are multiplied groups (christian and otherwise) who do the same, btw.

here is the truth in love:

NO MORTAL HUMAN can explain God. It is arrogance to try and define Him and then insist that everyone agree with our definition. I affirm what the Bible says; nothing more, nothing less. I will not go to the right nor the left.

I do not affirm the Trinity doctrine. I believe it adds to and subtracts from what the Bible says. I can find no place in the scriptures where an affirmation of this doctrine is necessary for salvation or for daily living, and no one in the scriptures spent any time teaching this "doctrine" as if it were necessary or important.

In other words, the triune nature of God is evident in the scriptures without creating a theological premise which must also be acknowledged

This is what I know to be absolutely true: He is God and we are not.

I'm glad you added this response (in love) to balance your first shooting from the hip reply

I particularly like, and totally agree with it when you say....

'... the triune nature of God is evident in the scriptures without creating a theological premise which must also be acknowledged

When people ask if I believe in the Trinity, I have often said, 'who is he?'...and like you say, the fact is many people are more interested in whether you believe in this 'Trinity' than whether you are 'born again' and in relationship with the Living G-d.

However....although the Trinity is not taught 'per se' in Scripture...many passages have been written with great attention to detail, that cumulatively instruct the reader and reveal collective truths about the nature and person of G-d...so in one way the writers under inspiration of the Holy Ghost knew it was vitally important that the Body of Messiah did not ingest a corrupt presentation of G-d and have a distorted understanding that might blight their perception, and ultimately their relationship.

[lekh l'kha]

Did Jesus indeed teach that He was part of a Trinity?

John 17 records Jesus' prayer to the Father: "Father, the hour has come, Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as YOU have GIVEN HIM AUTHORITY over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as YOU have GIVEN HIM. And this is eternal life, that they may KNOW YOU, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom YOU have sent. I have glorified You on Earth, I have finished the work which YOU have given ME to do." [emphasis mine, NKJV]

And finally, does Jesus suggest that His power over life came from the Only True God, or Himself?

Someone pointed out [which I was familiar with already] where Jesus tells Thomas, "you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" or "I and the Father are one" but can't this be easily understood in light of Hebrews 1:3, Jesus is the "brightness, express image, reflection" of the Father? All the fullness of Deity dwells in Him?

Finally, in the heavenly scene in Revelation chapters 4 and 5, we see the Father being worshiped and called Lord God Almighty, we see Jesus as a slain Lamb, who recieves the scroll from the One sitting on the throne. There is plenty of praise in Heaven, but never is there any directed to the Holy Spirit. Never is the Holy Spirit seen as a "person".

Hi, TTS. The thing which you would know about Biblical interpretation is that we can't isolate one or two passages of scripture and interpret them by themselves without looking at what the rest of the Word of God says about the same subject.

In Genesis 1 we read, "In the beginning GOD...." (the Father is mentioned right there), then, "...and the SPIRIT of God...", then "... and God SAID.." (the Word of God).

John 1.1 tells us that the Word of God is God, and John 1: 14 says that the Word was made flesh.

2Cor.5: 19 says that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and Col.2: 9 tells us that in Christ all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily.

Jesus did not say to Philip, "Have WE been with you such a long time, and yet you have not known US" when Philip asked Him to show them the Father, He said "Have I been with you... and yet you have not known ME"

Also, Jesus said that His words are:

1) the works of the Father.

2) Spirit and Life.

And He said that God is a Spirit.

But we know that Jesus is the Son of God, but He's also the son of MAN, and we are told by Paul,

For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him. But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all." (1Co 15:27-28);

and:

"... then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power." (1Co 15:24).

Bearing in mind that the Word of God teaches us that God's Word is subject to God, we shouldn't have a problem with this, because God said,

"For as the rain comes down, and the snow from the heavens, and does not return there, but waters the earth, and makes it bring out and bud, and give seed to the sower and bread to the eater; so shall My Word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do." (Isa 55:10-11)

This implies that the Word of God who is God, is subject to God. But until the kingdom is delivered by the Son of God/ Son of Man back to God, the authority is in the hands of MAN - IN JESUS THE MAN:

"... what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than elohiym, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet:" (Psa 8:4-6).

"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth." Mat 28:18)

"And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed." (Joh 20:28-29)

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory." (1Ti 3:16)

It's not the truths that the doctrine of the Trinity seeks to express that i have a problem with - it's the use of the extra Biblical word "persons" (plural) in the same sentence with the extrea-Biblical word "Trinity" which to me, negates the Oneness of God because it conjures up images in the human mind of three Gods.

[Botz]

lekh l'kha It's not the truths that the doctrine of the Trinity seeks to express that i have a problem with - it's the use of the extra Biblical word "persons" (plural) in the same sentence with the extrea-Biblical word "Trinity" which to me, negates the Oneness of God because it conjures up images in the human mind of three Gods.

I agree....the Old Covenant talks about G-d, and the Spirit, and the Angel of the L-rd etc, and yet there was never any confusion about the Oneness of G-d...there was no attempt at division, or to define the indefinable. (although I suspect in some of the Jewish commentaries there were certain controversies)

The New Covenant extends this same understanding, and we see more clearly, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, which to me mysteriously consolidates and unifies G-d and at the same time helps me appreciate some of the revelation about Himself to us.

I don't have any worries about the use of extra-biblical words, but I think the way the 'Trinity' has been promoted and the very nature of the name, has been the probable cause of further separation between Jewish and Gentile Believers...but it is an ongoing concern that warrants further reseach on my part...especially the idea that it was somehow a carefully chosen and deliberate undertaking.

[Guest shiloh357]

It's not the truths that the doctrine of the Trinity seeks to express that i have a problem with - it's the use of the extra Biblical word "persons" (plural) in the same sentence with the extrea-Biblical word "Trinity" which to me, negates the Oneness of God because it conjures up images in the human mind of three Gods.

It is no more extrabiblical than a lot of words we use like "legalism" and when we refer to "ceremonial law," "Millennium," and other words/phrases we have in our language meant solely to communicate a biblical concept. The concept of Trinity is defined as one God, but three persons, not three gods. It has been, over the years, competently taught and explained to a degree that to continue asserting that it refers to three gods in the face of those many explanations amounts to a frivolous claim.

[Guest shiloh357]

NO MORTAL HUMAN can explain God. It is arrogance to try and define Him and then insist that everyone agree with our definition.

But the teaching on the Trinity is not an attempt to define or explain God, in the first place. It simply brings together various parts of the New Testament that show how God has revealed Himself. It is an attempt to understand the revelation of God, not an attempt to define or place God in one of our boxes. The Trinity is a mystery and no one that I am aware of offers it up as definition of God, per se.

I believe it adds to and subtracts from what the Bible says.

Really? How so?