Trinity

[Botz]

And this third definition is the one that most jewish people think Christians are supporting

3. trinitytrinity - three people considered as a unit

threesome, triad, trio

assemblage, gathering - a group of persons together in one place

triumvirate - a group of three men responsible for public administration or civil authority

That has certainly been my observation from speaking to Orthodox Jews in Israel, and to a bundle of young Orthodox Jews attending various Yeshiva's...they are actually taught and warned about the Christian belief in three G-ds eg the Trinity...Their teaching is from complete bias, and with an ignorance that is astonishing, especially as they exault in study.

Straight away what worries me about this type of conversation, is that the focus has gone from Yeshua, or how G-d has revealed Himself to the Jewish people, through the Patriarch's, the Prophets and the Kings...and you are forced to defend and try to explain to a mind-set that has utter disdain for this entity called 'Trinity'.

I have been puzzling over this regarding teaching that comes out of Israel, and to some extent I think the answer lies in the Orthodox Churches that have been established in the country for many centuries, and have lived in religious communities along with Jews and to a certain extent Moslems...these Orthodox groups have promoted four things constantly:-

1. The Church...or their Church!

2. Jesus....the sanitized non-Jewish version.

3. The Trinity....over emphasis on Three.

4. The Virgin Mary...as Queen of Heaven.

All of which in their various guises are enough to make a Jew...even a secular Jew wince inwardly and keep their distance....this coupled with the facts of what happened in the Holocaust, and where Germans would leave off their extermination program on Sundays, and could be heard (by starving surviving Jews awaiting their fate), singing hymns to the Christian G-d, whom to their understanding must have endorsed their tormentors actions.

....and just as a side note...the vast majority of these established Christian institutions in Israel, unashamedly side with the Palestinians against Israel...I have personally talked to friars, monks, bishops even a Patriarch etc, and almost without exception they have nothing good to say about Israelis and support the Palestinians....there are obviously exceptions...and I remember Mother Basilea Schlink's Sisters of Mary from Darmstadt Germany, having great perception of the situation, and a true love of the Jewish people.

The long and the short of it is...I don't want to have to try and defend the Trinity to Jewish people (or anyone else for that matter)...by the grace of G-d I want to be able to show them how the G-d who called the Jewish people out of Egypt has never forgotten them, has always had a plan for them, has given His Son so that Gentiles might know their G-d, and in these days is drawing many Jews back to Himself through Messiah... We are told to be ready to give an answer of the hope that is within us...to declare the crucified risen Yeshua...basically to be real and tell it like it is.

[Botz]

The long and the short of it is...I don't want to have to try and defend the Trinity to Jewish people (or anyone else for that matter)...by the grace of G-d I want to be able to show them how the G-d who called the Jewish people out of Egypt has never forgotten them, has always had a plan for them, has given His Son so that Gentiles might know their G-d, and in these days is drawing many Jews back to Himself through Messiah... We are told to be ready to give an answer of the hope that is within us...to declare the crucified risen Yeshua...basically to be real and tell it like it is.

Good observations Botz and when like the eunuch of Acts 8 they hear the gospel of Christ preached and come to the realization they need to be immersed in water do you baptize them in the name of the Triune God?

Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matt 28:19)

Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached to him Jesus. As they went on the way, they came to some water, and the eunuch said,

[Smalcald]

So we should not teach who God is as it might offend someone?

This to me is the problem with denying the Trinity to make nice with different groups of people.

It is a core issue when you think about it, what does it say about us that we cannot even agree on who God is? Where have we gone and what has become of this faith when we can't even agree on that?

[Guest yod]

So we should not teach who God is as it might offend someone?

This to me is the problem with denying the Trinity to make nice with different groups of people.

It is a core issue when you think about it, what does it say about us that we cannot even agree on who God is? Where have we gone and what has become of this faith when we can't even agree on that?

Did you understand the mechanics of the "Trinity doctrine" before being saved?

Do you understand it completely without gaps in your knowledge yet?

This is another side-show issue that gets in the way of allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us. It's an intellectual pursuit that does nothing to feed our soul...only our flesh (brains).

When it comes to salvation, there is nothing that matters outside of the question asked by Yeshua of "Who do you say I am?"

I don't let the Trinity doctrine, or baptism, or creation, or politics, or any of the other endless debates ever stand in the way of that question when giving the gospel. These are issues that the enemy would love to sidetrack us and have nothing to do with the end result of salvation.

Once salvation has occured, then the Holy Spirit will lead the willing to where we should go on these extraneous issues.

[Smalcald]

When it comes to salvation, there is nothing that matters outside of the question asked by Yeshua of "Who do you say I am?"

Yod I am with you on your intent and agree with where you are coming from. No I had no real idea about the Trinity prior to faith and no I don't intellectually understand the nature of God.

However your above question indeed goes to the heart of the matter about who God is does it not? I mean if we don't agree on who Chris is or have even a close idea about who Christ is, how can we answer the question? Our Savior cannot be anybody but God, we cannot worship any being but God yet I worship Jesus the Christ, my Savior and I do this through the work of the Holy Spirit. This is all I know, I know that I do not worship multiple Gods, I know that I worship only one God as the first commandment says, and I know I worship the Father Son and Holy Spirit, One Being, yet three.

This is the Trinity to me, that's it outside of that I have no idea.

[Guest yod]

Did you understand the mechanics of the "Trinity doctrine" before being saved?

And yet if the unsaved should question

[Guest yod]

When it comes to salvation, there is nothing that matters outside of the question asked by Yeshua of "Who do you say I am?"

Yod I am with you on your intent and agree with where you are coming from. No I had no real idea about the Trinity prior to faith and no I don't intellectually understand the nature of God.

However your above question indeed goes to the heart of the matter about who God is does it not? I mean if we don't agree on who Chris is or have even a close idea about who Christ is, how can we answer the question? Our Savior cannot be anybody but God, we cannot worship any being but God yet I worship Jesus the Christ, my Savior and I do this through the work of the Holy Spirit. This is all I know, I know that I do not worship multiple Gods, I know that I worship only one God as the first commandment says, and I know I worship the Father Son and Holy Spirit, One Being, yet three.

This is the Trinity to me, that's it outside of that I have no idea.

I have no problem saying that Yeshua is fully God and fully man. I have no problem saying that the Creator is God and His Holy Spirit is also God.

How does one explain that to someone who hasn't received revelation from the Holy Spirit anyway?

Yet explaining a theological doctrine put together by greco-Romans, a few centuries after Yeshua, as a "checklist" of how you must think is beyond that. It might be a fun debate in christian circles but it is rather unnecessary for the cause of the gospel before salvation.

Can you point to a single place where anyone promoted this "doctrine" as a method of teaching salvation in the scriptures?

that's a rhetorical question, of course.

[Smalcald]

We must be equipped to answer the basic questions about what Holy Scripture reveals about Christ. I would disagree a little on one point. When we talk about Christ with unbelievers, we speak about the need for our sins to be forgiven about the need for a Savior who can do that, for a Savior who can forgive sins, who lives inside of our bodies, who is eternal,who defeated sin, death and the devil, who has all of the characteristics of God, we also claim very clearly that we do NOT believe in multiple Gods; so yes when we evangelize we often implicitly proclaim the Trinity.

When we talk about who Jesus is we are proclaiming the Trinity.

I have no problem saying that Yeshua is fully God and fully man. I have no problem saying that the Creator is God and His Holy Spirit is also God.

How does one explain that to someone who hasn't received revelation from the Holy Spirit anyway?

Yet explaining a theological doctrine put together by greco-Romans, a few centuries after Yeshua, as a "checklist" of how you must think is beyond that. It might be a fun debate in christian circles but it is rather unnecessary for the cause of the gospel before salvation.

I am probably misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that the theological doctrine which you described very nicely in the first two sentences above is a doctrine put together by greco-Romans? The implication being that if the greco_romans did this it is false?

I am probably misunderstanding you.

[lekh l'kha]

"Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Isn't HIS name YHWH? Why aren't we baptised in HIS name? Why are we baptised in the name of three titles or descriptions of God, instead of in HIS name? Just asking. Because I've often wondered why we are not baptised in the name of God.

[Smalcald]

9Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In Matthew we are told directly to do so.