The place of the prophet in the new testament.

[nebula]

I just might never get it.

Boy - you just left yourself wide open to be teased! :tongue: But I'll resist the temptation.

The bottom line, Steve, is that you never had a word of prophecy spoken over you, you've never seent he prophetic in operation (beyond commentaries) and therefore cannot understand how it works.

A prophet told Paul he was going to be bound and thrown in jail if he ever returned to Jerusalem. Paul went anyway. Why? The prophet was only confirming what Paul already knew in his heart. The word wasn't to keep him from ging, but to prepare him for what was ahead.

There is also mentioned in Acts that a prophetic word was given that a certain area was about to go through a famine. The church then collected money to be delivered to the church(es) in the area where the famine was to hit so the people would be provided for.

This is why we still need prophets today. We need specific knowledge and specific revelation for specific circumstances we are facing.

I remember one time I was with a group where a prophet was receiving words of knowledge for each of us. Puzzled, he said to me that the only thing He heard the Lord saying to me was, "Stability." Believe you me, with what I was struggling with at the time, that was just the thing I needed to hear! I was struggling with confusion over whether or not I ws taking the right stand and doing the right actions over an issue. That word just took a load of stress off!

There is just something about hearing from someone else what the Lord is doing in your life to help you feel secure in what the Lord is speaking to your own heart.

It is truly, truly sad that you have been robbed of knowing the Lord in this way.

[stevehut]

It is truly, truly sad that you have been robbed of knowing the Lord in this way.

Huh?

Did I say I didn't believe in prophecy?

[Scudbuddy]

Steve,

It would probaly be a good time to tell us what you do believe. We probaly have some misconceptions, and your setting us straight would help us in that area. And I mean that in the kindest way. I don't want to presume anything on your belief system.

[stevehut]

It would probaly be a good time to tell us what you do believe. We probaly have some misconceptions,

Good enough, Scud.

I don't have a problem with prophecy, per se.

What bothers me sometimes is when I hear people puff themselves up by claiming new revelation from God. That's a different matter.

And since we now have a canonized NT, I believe that the office of the prophet has passed. My church does not have anyone with that title, and if they ever do I'm outta there.

To date, I've been trying to address one narrow issue at a time, but that doesn't seem to work. So many related topics come up and distract me.

Is that clearer?

[Guest shiloh357]

Picture of a Prophet

By Leonard Ravenhill

The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.

Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, "No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected." The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his "brand name."

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him "Man of the year" when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!

The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, "has almost always been that of recovery."

The prophet is God's detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him.

He has no price tags.

He is totally "otherworldly."

He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.

He marches to another drummer!

He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.

He is a "seer" who comes to lead the blind.

He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a "thus saith

the Lord."

He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of

impending judgment.

He lives in "splendid isolation."

He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright.

His message is "repent, be reconciled to God or else...!"

His prophecies are parried.

His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.

He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.

He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!

He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with epitaphs when dead.

He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few "make the grade" in his class.

He is friendless while living and famous when dead.

He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint

by posterity.

He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of

Life to those who listen.

He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.

He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.

He announces, pronounces, and denounces!

He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.

He talks to men about God.

He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.

He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.

He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in the

marketplace.

He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual. He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.

He is ordained of God but disdained by men.

Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!

I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the "seven years of plenty" are over for us. The "seven years of famine" are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. "Come-outers" have "come out" and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

GOD'S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.

Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.

Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and

stagnant "churchianity."

Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.

Let him, too, say and live, "This ONE thing I do."

Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.

Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous,

nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.

Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move

men to God.

Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has received the order of the day.

Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the

clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.

Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision

no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the

wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where

enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.

God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!

[blessed2]

Amen.

[Scudbuddy]

Thanks Steve,

I think the biggest problem with the church and the office of the Prophet is the misunderstanding of their duties.

In the biblical times, it was important for them to be 100% accurate because how could they be trusted to hear Gods voice if they were sometimes wrong. And yet even then Samuel and Elisha had a "School of Prophets." A school is a learning enviornment. So I think in the biblical times there must have been two types of prophets. (Notice I said THINK.)

One kind that could hear God very clearly, and was responsible for the written word.

Another kind whose job was not quite as serious, and who over time acquired the ability to hear Gods voice over the voices of man and demons.

But again, I stress that this is subjective, and I cannot find alot of scripture to state as fact. Just that there were Schools and that Schools are learning enviornments.

I think in todays world since the bible has been written and canonized, the role of the prophetic has totally changed. I believe that we don't need prophets to be 100% because we are not dependent on them writing the word. I believe that "We see in part" allows for that. The Body of Christ is learning to distinguish Gods voice from the other voices. Since if we are Gods children we are all able to hear Gods' voice, it is a learning experience to distinguish that voice. ("My Sheep hear my voice.")

That is why I have no problem when we try to exercise the prophetic, and get something wrong. As long as we are open to being wrong, and can admit it. It helps us learn how to hear better. And as long as we don't put a "Thus sayeth the Lord" to it. At that point, you have to be right. It is better to say "I believe the Lord is saying this, but correct me if you think I am wrong." That allows for truth to come out, and for the human error to be corrected.

Agabus correctly heard that Paul would die if he went to Rome and tried to warn him. Yet Paul said that it was Gods will for him to go. Agabus could hear the voice of God getting the facts right, and yet missed it by trying to keep Paul from going. Yet we do not see Agabus called a "False Prophet" and stoned. The church allowed for Agabus to make this mistake.

According to Church history, the church service in the NT church would allow for the different members to prophecy as long as they passed the I John 4 test. "Test the spirits to see if they are of God." Once they passed that test, they would prophecy. The church would judge the word. This allowed for people to learn to hear God clearly. Even Samuel needed to hear Gods voice 3 times before he recognized it was God. And Eli had to train him to clarify Gods voice from his.

There is a book called "When Heaven Invades Earth" by Bill Johnson that goes into this. He has a school where they teach students to hear the voice of God. They will allow for them to speak a prophetic word, and then one of the instructors will take the word apart to show what is good and what is so-so, and what is not good. They teach the students the rules about prophecy. Such as don't meddle with peoples love lives by saying "God told me you are going to marry this person." I Cor.7 shows Paul making it clear that "If you want to marry, marry. If you do not want to marry, don't marry!" So when prophetic voices start meddling with something that the Apostle Paul didn't even mess with, then something is wrong.

Stuff like that is important to know. Most people start out giving a word, and because there is no system to judge a word, unless it is down right heretical, no one says a word. This ends up causing a good person to sooner or later exhibit some real problems because they practiced the gift of prophecy without any constructive criticism.

By allowing for a "Learning enviornment" to take place, we correct this sort of junk. When I was a kid, I was big into basketball. I was MVP in two different leagues. But my opponents noticed I had a glaring weakness. I couldn't shoot a freethrow. They learned to foul me whenever I had the ball. Later on, a coach noticed it was my style of shooting. He corrected my style, and I improved dramatically.

By prophecying within a bad structured enviornment, we begin to show some real glaring weaknesses. I have seen some prophetic types who can really hit it when they hit it. But then they get into some area like meddling with peoples love life, and that is where they blow it. I saw one man who could hear God with incredible accuracy. Men would weep as he brought forth prophetic insight into their life. But he would also go around telling couples to get married. Or even singles to get involved with some other single. These people would get married, and within a short time would be divorced. I saw 14 couples go through this.

But no one wanted to believe he could be wrong, when he was so right elsewhere.

The results of Bills church allowing for their people to learn how to prophecy instead of demanding that they be 100% accurate from the beginning is that Bill has a church that can prophecy very accurately, and they go onto the streets of their city and are bringing the lost into the Kingdom by the droves. I have interviewed the citizens of their city, and they have better stories than what are in his book. Incredible stories.

[Guest shadow2b]

-Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has received the order of the day.

Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the

clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.

Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision

no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the

wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where

enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.

God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!

-YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--SHILOH---

-SHILOH--what a TREASURE you {found??}-- -Can I copy the entire post & print it out for daily reference??

-IT IS Amazing isn't it???Soooooo-few can "HEAR" the WORD-OF-GOD--Thru-HIS Prophet-{S}---For 30 years WE have heard the "Nay-sayers--the Absolutely certain

-that GOD NO-LONGER SPEAKS---IF GOD no-longer "Speaks"HOW did the skeptics

get saved??How did They hear HIS-VOICE to Repent??

-I guess poor-old-Paul--just really didn't "Know"what he was talking about when he gave the specific "gifts-of-the-HOLY-SPIRIT" & the MEN who were to "Operate"in

Specific offices for the church----Apostle--Prophet-pastors-teachers----Soooooo I Reckon ALL those "Specific-offices"ceased as well-Right??SO anyone "Operating" in

the "Office"of an "Apostle"is a lying false-Apostle-Right?? Just as anyone Operating in the Office of a"Prophet"is a lying-false-prophet Right??So it would seem then anyone operating in the Office of a "Pastor"is a lying false-"Pastor" Right??--Same for a lying-false- "Teacher" then Right??

-geeeeeee---whizzzz--Shiloh--This is absolutely Distressing news to me--Seems like WE the Church just do not have Anyone left who can teach US the WORD of GOD huhh? NOW WHAT DO WE DO?

[Guest shadow2b]

-That is why I have no problem when we try to exercise the prophetic, and get something wrong. As long as we are open to being wrong, and can admit it. It helps us learn how to hear better. And as long as we don't put a "Thus sayeth the Lord" to it. At that point, you have to be right. It is better to say "I believe the Lord is saying this, but correct me if you think I am wrong." That allows for truth to come out, and for the human error to be corrected

-This is devolving into the- "TOTALLY-ABSURD!!"-GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HIS RULES--HIS-WORD--HIS QUALIFICATIONS FOR HIS PROPHET-IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREAM!!!EVER-PERIOD!!!!---

-YOU either Stay with GODS WORD & HIS BOOK OR YOU THROW IT OUT THE WINDOW & START MAKING UP YOUR OWN RULES--WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!!!

-I HAVE A VERY BIG PROBLEM WITH THIS TOTALLY ERRONEOUS CONCEPT!!!

[Scudbuddy]

Shadow,

I quoted Scripture. I didn't make up the "School of Prophets." If they were to be 100% accurate right from the beginning, why did they need to go to school? Was that to teach fund raising techniques? Why did Samuel not know the voice of God at the beginning? Why did it take him 3 times with instruction from Eli to know it was God?

Don't go to what you think you know until you anwser that.

The reason we have such problems with the prophetic today is because unlike the other gifts we are expected to be mature prophets from the start because of a misunderstanding about "false prophets." So we either have little or no prophetic people in our churches, or those who under the pressure to be 100% accurate are unteachable and eventually heretical. These people do a lot of damage to the body.

The bible has been canonized. The rule for strict 100% accuracy was to secure the quality of scripture. We now "Know in part." The gift of prophecy is learned.

Here is one other question. Who do you know that is 100% accurate, and has never been wrong that is living today? Either your anwser will be "No one", or you will anwser that you do not believe that the office of prophet is needed today. Either anwser will explain why it is hard for you to come to grips with the practicality of "learning how to prophecy."