Israel is Israel?

[Guest yod]

Was that a yes or a no?

it was!

I am going to guess that Yod was addressing the word "belief" being used rather than "faith" being used. ???

Because having been through previous discussions on the matter, I have come to realize that the words "faith" and "belief" are Biblically not synonymous terms. Our society holds that they are (proof is in the "Faith vs. Science" threads on the Board). But since you have been asking for understanding on this matter, I am venturing to guess that Yod is trying to teach you something that is important to understand with regards to the Scriptures.

So perhaps if you asked:

"I'm talking about salvation through Jesus Christ. Are we in agreement that unbelievers (which include today's Jews) are not saved because they do not have faith in Jesus?"

you might get the answer you were looking for.

(Or not )

Actually I was pointing out that the idea that "There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved" was first said by a jewish man to thousands of jews without a single gentile present. Why wouldn't that still be true for jews today? Seems like a rhetorical question so I gave the rhetorical answer.

And I did additionally point out that Kefa was telling them to "have strong trust" in the Lord, which is not necessarily the same as "agree with christian theology"

If my previous statements weren't clear, then I hope we know the difference between faith and belief now?

[nebula]

Sorry, Or'el

I thought I was helping to clarify things for you.

[Botz]

No Paul would not have been ashamed to be called Messianic!

You didn

[nebula]

Horizon, why is it that when we are talking apples you reply by arguing against tomatos?

I'm serious - that's the equivalent of what you are doing.

[nebula]

But I am comparing apples to apples. Please explain what you are referring to and I will be happy to discuss.

I did explain - many times.

I'm tired of trying to find new ways to repeat myself.

You are not arguing the same fruit we are.

[Botz]

Think of Paul shortly after he was converted, he wasn't exactly welcomed by the brethren with open arms, because his previous history had gone before him...until eventually they began to trust him, that he had truly been saved.....same thing in a way with many Jews wary towards Christians reaching out to them because of the past...

Then your theology suggests building back the wall that separates Jew and Gentile thus removing the peace that is to exist between the two people? Are you authorized to do that?

For [Jesus] is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us ~ Apostle Paul

It suggests nothing of the sort...it merely points out why many Jewish people are suspicious of Christians.

Well you seem to have a blind spot somewhere as you just don't seem to grasp what is said, and I can only assume from your replies that the history of the way the Jewish people in particular have been treated by Gentiles and Gentile Believers/and so-called Believers, just does not register in the same way with you as it does with me...hence because you seem determined to swim round in circles I am left with the strong impression that you ignore this aspect of history, or whiz past it as historically irrelevant today ...It is not a case of me trying to misrepresent you...I think you make a fair job of that yourself...rather just trying to grasp why you have such a problem with the fact that many Believers seem to understand the implications of this history far better than you do.

Do you deny the historical fact that Gentile Christians have suffered persecution at the hands of those who wear the name “Christian”? Does Jesus require His disciples to persecute any group of people for any reason? Does Jesus require that we love our neighbors? Can you provide one example of any congregation of the Lord’s church at any time in history persecuting Jews to back up your claim? You appear to be historically and biblically confused.

Of course I do not deny the fact of Gentile Christians being persecuted by other Christians, and I don't need references either.

No Jesus does not require any Believers to persecute anyone.

Yes we should love our neighbours.

I am not biblically or historically confused...but you really are on a different page from many people here, and seem to remain adamantly proud of it for reasons that are beyond my understanding, and judging from some of the responses I am not alone.

Do you actually have any idea of the history of Christian persecution against Jews, or do you just dismiss it by convincing yourself that those who did these things were not real Christians? Do you find it hard to put yourself in the shoes of a Jewish person, who might believe they have legitimate reasons to be wary of Christians?

In answer to your last question, here is just a short passage from the US holocaust site, that sets the tone, although I do not agree with the idea of the way John wrote about the Jews and the devils, so please don't go off on a tangent about that:-

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/

Competition for converts and other factors led to an intensification of Jewish-Christian conflict towards the end of the first century even though there is evidence of continued Jewish-Christian interaction, including Christian participation in Sabbath worship, in some areas well beyond that. These conflicts had a negative impact on the writers of certain parts of the New Testament especially the author of the gospel of John which was compiled about this time. In several places John' s gospel associates "the Jews" with darkness and with the devil. This laid the groundwork for centuries of Christian characterization of Jews as agents of the devil, a characterization which found its way into medieval popular religion and eventually into passion plays.

In the second century and beyond, many of the principal Fathers of the Church began to write of Jews as a "rejected people" who were doomed to a life of marginality and misery. Jews were to wander the world as a "despised people." This image persisted in Christian preaching, art and popular teaching for centuries to come. In certain countries it often led to civil and political discrimination against Jews and in some instances to physical attacks on Jews which resulted in death. While some Popes, bishops and Christian princes stepped up to protect Jews, they were clearly a minority. It was only in the mid-twentieth century that the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations issued major statements repudiating this anti-Judaic theology and began a process of constructive Christian-Jewish interaction.

When the Nazis came on the scene in Germany they were able to draw upon the legacy of Christian anti-Judaism even though biologically-based antisemitism went well beyond classical Christian anti-Judaism by arguing for the annihilation of the Jews rather than only for their misery and marginality. Christian antisemitism provided an indispensable seedbed for the success of Nazism on the popular level. It led some Christians to embrace the Nazi ideology and many others to stand on the sidelines as masses of Jews were exterminated.

[freeman455]

For the love of me--I did not know that there were 3-4-5 different Christians. Last time I checked my Bible there were only, a Christian, singular. All who receive Jesus Christ are Christian, His. That will include anyone, no matter who it is. No matter when it was that they accepted Him or when they will accept Him as their savior, they are Christian...

Leodrex:

[Guest yod]

I am not biblically or historically confused...

You didn

[Guest yod]

For the love of me--I did not know that there were 3-4-5 different Christians. Last time I checked my Bible there were only, a Christian, singular. All who receive Jesus Christ are Christian, His. That will include anyone, no matter who it is. No matter when it was that they accepted Him or when they will accept Him as their savior, they are Christian...

Leodrex:

That is how it was until a predominantly gentile "church" decided to separate itself from the olive tree of Romans 11. Since then, there have been thousands upon thousands of denominations trying to distinguish themselves from other "christians"

[Smalcald]

For the love of me--I did not know that there were 3-4-5 different Christians. Last time I checked my Bible there were only, a Christian, singular. All who receive Jesus Christ are Christian, His. That will include anyone, no matter who it is. No matter when it was that they accepted Him or when they will accept Him as their savior, they are Christian...

Leodrex:

That is how it was until a predominantly gentile "church" decided to separate itself from the olive tree of Romans 11. Since then, there have been thousands upon thousands of denominations trying to distinguish themselves from other "christians"

Did that seperation happen before or after the third century in your opinion Yod?