Israel is Israel?

[Guest yod]

multitudes of true Christians have spoken against the persecution of the Jewish people in the past and today. Maybe you are just not listening?

I'm sure Shiloh wouldn't dispute that...but are you willing to admit that it has historically been an extreme minority even within the community of people who call themselves "christian"?

The true church of Jesus Christ today is not responsible IMO for what has happened,

That is a greek (humanistic) way of thinking. We have all been given the ministry of reconciliation in this Kingdom. It's not about what we "have" to do, it's about submitting to the Cross.

our responsibility is to see that it does not happen again.

and acting like its not something we should be concerned about will help it how?

I'd really like to hear your ideas about how the church could or should go about doing this?

I'm all ears!

[nikki1]

Blessings, yod

I'm sure Shiloh wouldn't dispute that...but are you willing to admit that it has historically been an extreme minority even within the community of people who call themselves "christian"?

So Shiloh 357 has a proxie now?

During the Nazi reign, the card carrying Nazis infiltrated what was considered

[Guest shiloh357]

So was I. You are knit picking to start an argument where there is none by implying that there is also no way we can in full honesty and truthfulness claim that NO true Christians were involved in these things

No, the intellectually dishonest approach is to assume that Christians could not have participated, even in a state of ignorance, in the things that happened. You are trying to make an absolute statement about Chrisitans that you are not qualified to make. Given their situation, they may have participated for the sake of self-preservation. There are stories of Christians who began helping Jews during the holocaust, but fear drove them to abandon the Jews and give up those they at first tried to help. Their motive of participation was not blind hate, but they participated nonetheless. The same would have been true the middle ages. Friendship or partnership with a Jew could have devestating consequences and it was just easier to follow the path of least resistance.

QUOTE

Never said or implied that it was.

Yet you have been ignoring this fact as if it was.

No I was not ignoring this fact. This thread is not about all of the other people who have been persecuted. My focus on what has happened to the Jews is not a denial of what any other people group has faced.

I think it is very relevant to the issue because you seem to give the impression that only Jewish people are rejected from within their own race and religion, and only Jewish people were persecuted by what you consider

[nebula]

Our perspective can be "they weren't true Christians," but the perspective of the Jews is still "Christians".

Never-the-less, it is an accurate assessment, and no one will ever convince me that this is the perspective of all Jewish people. To continue to feed this lie does not help our cause in spreading the Gospel of Christ, it hinders it IMO. I know too many Jewish people that know the difference, and it's a shame that some here don't know this.

I had a Jewish friend in high school who didn't know this. There was much passion (hurt and anger) in his voice as he talked about these things. At the time I didn't know what else to do but to grieve with him and tell him I thought what they did was wrong and unBiblical.

Philippians 2

3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves ;

4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling ;

13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing ;

15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

[Guest yod]

So Shiloh 357 has a proxie now?

Jewish people shouldn't have to defend themselves from christians. Yes, I'll be a proxie for every jewish person if I have to.

During the Nazi reign, the card carrying Nazis infiltrated what was considered

[Smalcald]

See I don't agree I don't think that someone who is born again will automatically lose all prejudice against other races and ethnic people.

We are products of what we have grown into and our environment. Christ certainly sets us free from sin and certainly we began the process of sanctification, but we are not sinless, and prejudice is just one more sin. Also there is confusion between prejudice and hate. Some people are prejudiced simply because they are uninformed, they don't hate the other race, and they just hold wrong ideas about them.

I have held many prejudices in my life from my upbringing slowly I have tried to expunge these, but I know that they may still linger. I have never hated Jews but there is no doubt that I have held prejudiced beliefs about them from my childhood. Simply being isolated from another group of people will make us prejudiced toward them.

Now God uses that and challenges us to change as we grow in faith we can either resist that or not, that is what differentiates us.

But I hear prejudiced beliefs about Arabs and Muslims on this board so we are all vulnerable.

[nikki1]

Yod

Jewish people shouldn't have to defend themselves from christians. Yes, I'll be a proxie for every jewish person if I have to.

So I

[Guest yod]

But I hear prejudiced beliefs about Arabs and Muslims on this board so we are all vulnerable.

this is key

I believe that the jews are a test for the gentiles/nations. Most of the people I know who are sincere in their love for the jewish people are just as sincere about loving everyone else especially arabs who are their cousins, after all. This love started by being humble towards the jews.

Often I speak out against the Palestinian Authority and it's "leadership" but it's never directed at the arabs who are suffering underneath their bigotry and brutality.

I didn't care about arabs at all until God gave me this love for His ancient chosen people.

[Guest yod]

This argument is ridiculous and I am not going to discuss it with you any further because of your apparent prejudice and bigotry toward the millions of non-Jews who were murdered in the holocaust that you refuse to recognize, because if you did, it would put the focus of this discussion in its right perspective.

If you are going to make that accusation, then please back it up by showing where I've done that. You can't because it doesn't happen.

The Holocaust happened to everyone because the root of it was hatred of the jews. Yes, Hitler killed some people from other groups but it doesn't change the fact that he targeted every jewish person for annihilation and specifically set out to erase them as a people.

If we can't be honest about history, then we are doomed to repeat it.

This isn't an academic exercise to me. I was in Auschwitz less than 3 weeks ago...I'm sharing a hotel room with a man born in a concentration camp today. I've been intensely studying this subject for a long time now...making 8 trips to Germany and also visiting Poland, Austria, Hungary, Switzerland since May 2006.

It could not have happened without folks as innocent as yourself acting like it wasn't a big deal.

our responsibility is to see that it does not happen again.

btw, I'm still waiting to hear you elaborate on this statement. It sounds good but how would/could/should the church meet this responsibility?

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." -Albert Einstein

[Smalcald]

But I hear prejudiced beliefs about Arabs and Muslims on this board so we are all vulnerable.

this is key

I believe that the jews are a test for the gentiles/nations. Most of the people I know who are sincere in their love for the jewish people are just as sincere about loving everyone else especially arabs who are their cousins, after all. This love started by being humble towards the jews.

Often I speak out against the Palestinian Authority and it's "leadership" but it's never directed at the arabs who are suffering underneath their bigotry and brutality.

I didn't care about arabs at all until God gave me this love for His ancient chosen people.

That is fascinating.

Yes seperating the leadership and politics and beliefs; from the people is very important.