Ancient religions - product of fear and ignorance?

[nebula]

But he did reject the gods the majority of the population believed in, didn't he?

We are talking about Socrates I think?

No. You were talking to me about Aristotle.

Someone else made that particular comment about Socrates rejecting the gods, not Aristotle. I think you mixed the two up. Not that it matters.

Well, it does if we are supposed to be dialoguing.

You stated:

Did you ignore what I said about Aristotle? If someone so well informed, for his era, could come to such wrong conclusions, that is proof that in some fields certain levels of knowledge are critical to figuring some things out. So what kind of knowledge are you talking about? What did they know that we haven't figured out?

To which I responded:

Did you ignore what I said about Aristotle?

No, I just consider him to be off-base from what I am talking about.

If someone so well informed, for his era, could come to such wrong conclusions, that is proof that in some fields certain levels of knowledge are critical to figuring some things out.

But he did reject the gods the majority of the population believed in, didn't he?

It sounded to me like you were talking about Aristotle, and I was responding about Aristotle.

[nebula]

Nebula, you told me I am closed minded. Do you really think that one who is willing to engage in discussion is closed minded?

When you stated from the get-go that you don't believe in the spiritual realm, and when you kept affirming that you would only accept a proposition that can be run through a testable hypothesis - what is there to discuss?

It is puzzling to me that you insist on me discussing something you don't believe in.

Is it because you want to learn? Or because you want to argue against what I have to say? That's what I'm juggling in my mind. What I've seen written from you causes me to lean towards question two.

I am beginning to lose interest.

Good - so how about we leave this as "we are in disagreement on this issue" and move along?

[Arthur Durnan]

I'd say outright rebellion against the One True God commencing with Nimrod of Babylon, the father of all false religion. Religion is man's "cup of expresso." Salvation thru Christ Jesus is God's answer to the human condition.

[nebula]

Feel free to try and back me into a corner any time. You, however, want to stay out of the proverbial corner and to do so you think you may have to avoid the discussion with me all together. Very well, I won't pester you further.

You are a better debater than I am.

And whenever I debate with an atheist/agnostic about the spiritual realm, I cannot speak of it without talking about my experiences, and the response is always to write it off as some mental/psychological thing, and then I have to defend myself, and ya-da ya-da. Can you understand why I tire of discussing it with a pre-skeptic?

But here's a test.

Last night at church, there was a woman who had medical documentation of having HIV/AIDS and some form of cancer and some other terminal illnesses. She has none of these in her body now. She had been completely healed by the power of the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus!

I saw her. She looked and acted the appearance of perfect health.

Two night ago, I overheard one of the leaders praying healing for someone who had been raped. Last night, a young man was brought to the front. It was him who had been prayed for, and he spoke of having been molested for two years by his uncles, and it was so severe his body was permanently damaged. When he was being prayed for, he could feel the damaged muscles being healed. The youth leader likewise testified that he saw the movement in his back of muscles being moved, like ripples. This young man was beaming with happiness/exuberance/joy as he testified all physical damage and all mental/psychological damage was completely healed!

Now before you respond I have one question -

Can you prove that anyone is lying or delusional any more than I can provide evidence to you that they or I am not?

[MorningGlory]

I'd say outright rebellion against the One True God commencing with Nimrod of Babylon, the father of all false religion. Religion is man's "cup of expresso." Salvation thru Christ Jesus is God's answer to the human condition.

[Joshua-777]

Now before you respond I have one question -

Can you prove that anyone is lying or delusional any more than I can provide evidence to you that they or I am not?

No, I can't.

And whenever I debate with an atheist/agnostic about the spiritual realm, I cannot speak of it without talking about my experiences, and the response is always to write it off as some mental/psychological thing, and then I have to defend myself, and ya-da ya-da. Can you understand why I tire of discussing it with a pre-skeptic?

I can definitely see why you are wary.

But here's a test.

Last night at church, there was a woman who had medical documentation of having HIV/AIDS and some form of cancer and some other terminal illnesses. She has none of these in her body now. She had been completely healed by the power of the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus!

I saw her. She looked and acted the appearance of perfect health.

I know that mysterious and seemingly nearly spontaneous cures sometimes occur. I can't explain them, but I don't attribute them to the Holy Spirit. There are too many instances of good people who are not cured and of newborns who suffer terrible deformity, and so on. I think instead that a natural explanation is available, if we can only find it.

How can there be a natural explanation for someone being prayed over and healed, I have met many who have been healed by the Holy Spirit all with similar testimonials. I can also relate I know God has healed not only me, but my whole family. The only explanation that can be provided is that we serve an active God, and He's wanting to move in your life.

[other one]

Nebula, you told me I am closed minded. Do you really think that one who is willing to engage in discussion is closed minded?

When you stated from the get-go that you don't believe in the spiritual realm, and when you kept affirming that you would only accept a proposition that can be run through a testable hypothesis - what is there to discuss?

I do not now believe in the existence of a spiritual world, though there was a time I once did. That I am willing to discuss this means I am open to the possibility of being persuaded again, but it would take a darn good argument. Have you got one?

It is puzzling to me that you insist on me discussing something you don't believe in.

It is far more entertaining to discuss a matter with someone who disagrees with me. It is far more of a challenge. It is hard to get a buzz from a discussion if I only talk with those who agree with me.

Is it because you want to learn?

I am interested in learning what others think, but I am not here to be taught. Do you see the difference. If, for example someone wishes to teach me about Jesus I must say I already know about Jesus. I once believed but found the claims wanting. I need a persuasive argument that I am not able to rebut, because I will attempt to rebut. You need to push me into a corner where I can see no way out. That's what it would take to make me believe. I am willing to let people try.

There are many here Nebula who will not offer any response but ridicule to my reasoned arguments. You are one who actually provides the reasoned responses I seek.

Or because you want to argue against what I have to say? That's what I'm juggling in my mind.

Why must it be one or the other? Why can't it be both? I won't aruge with you for the sake of arguing. If I agree I will say so. If I don't agree I will argue the point. In this matter I don't even know what you will proposition. You have been very reluctant to even tell me.

So perhaps I should just leave it alone. I don't think you want to have a discussion with me because you have judged, rightly, that if I disagree with you I would likely try to back you into a corner. Personally, that's what I enjoy. Feel free to try and back me into a corner any time. You, however, want to stay out of the proverbial corner and to do so you think you may have to avoid the discussion with me all together. Very well, I won't pester you further.

Marsh, let me tell you of a personal experience.

I worked for Xerox for a bit over 38 years and have been into hundreds upon hundreds of offices and churches in my career. One in particular was the AOG in Shawnee, Oklahoma on tenth street. About 20 or so years ago there was a young lady attending church there with her family most Sundays when she was not sick. She had been having some kind of an internal infection since the day she was born. I will make this story short, by just jumping to the problem and spare you will all the tests for years that she endured.

It was discovered by ex-rays and cat scans that she had developed a third kidney as she developed in her mothers womb and it had not plumbed itself to her bladder. She had been having a kidney infection that was not supposed to be there at all.

They put her on high levels of antibiotics for two weeks to kill out all the infection possible to cut down on surgery problems. Two days before the surgery, the whole church came forth and prayed and laid hands on this little girl and anointed her with oil and prayed for several hours.

Two days later her surgeons required a new cat scan so they could get another view of her insides. They were going to have to go places that normally don't get accessed and needed to know where nerves and blood system parts were located so as not to cause damage to her when removing the kidney.

When the scans were finished, it showed that the kidney was gone. Everyone had thought that she was just feeling better because of the antibiotics, but she had been healed. I saw the ex-rays myself and prints of the cat scans, so I know that it was not some mistake or whatever. The hospital had no desire to fool anyone. It has been ten years or so since I herd from that family, but for the first ten years anyway she had no more problems of that nature.

Before I worked for Xerox, I was a director and audio engineer for two local television stations and can testify that I have personally seen those people who jump into wheelchairs and go out to be healed. I'd tell you of the evangelists involved, but I'd just get sued if I did...... but I would also say that every great once in a while, there would be people who were obviously hurt and healed instantly. Nothing I had the time or access to prove like the first, but obvious none the less.

You can take my word for it........ or you can just keep your own thoughts. Unless you put yourself in the situation to be a witness to something like this, you'll spend your whole life in denial

As for the existence of a spiritual world is a whole other story. little of it that I've experienced is positive and it would be good if you're never exposed to it.