Is Jesus God?

[nebula]

Dear,

I am not your "dear." You, sir, are out of line.

it would not matter if I had 'creds' or if I was nice. Trins will be trins. Your brainwashing is pretty much through and through.

Yes it does matter. We've come across too many self-proclaimed teachers and self-proclaimed prophets on this board to receive new people here for the sole purpose of "setting us straight."

Fruit of the Spirit speaks more volumes than fancy words.

Politics and religion. People are not reasonable or rational when it comes down to it. I was holding my own on the other forum.

They had to kill me and swipe my presence in order to keep the truth from infiltrating even their own.

This is an attitude given the nick-name "martyr syndrome." It does not work to win favors.

Truth cannot be denied. Firewalls are one partition away from the same idea which permeates across the ethers.

Even Shiloh was complaining about non-trins and Arians becoming more prevalent. We will not be denied.

Humanism

Although I am promoting Shema specifically.

How about - "Love the Lord your God?" And "love your neighbor as yourself?"

[nebula]

Shema IS to love the Lord your God. Hee hee. Do you know what you are arguing against? Look it up. Shema Wiki. Any of the Jewish google links.

Shema means "hear."

And I fail to see the love in your posts.

[~candice~]

If the general tone of this thread does not lift, and I continue to see disrespect shown towards posters, it will be closed. Choice is yours, folks, I hope you choose wisely.

[~candice~]

If the general tone of this thread does not lift, and I continue to see disrespect shown towards posters, it will be closed. Choice is yours, folks, I hope you choose wisely.

I'm going to bed. 'Gnite all. Sorry for any snarkiness. Tomorrow is another day.

Rest well nothead! Thanks for the apology and I hope tomorrow the discussion is fruitful and respectful.

God bless,

Candice

[OneLight]

Youall haven't embraced my lone message none of thee. Why is that? I feel alone and beset by enemies round about. God help me. Snif.

A stranger walks in your door claiming he is here to fix your understanding of who Jesus is.

No credentials, no humility, no essence of being in the presence of the Lord, no interest in communion. Just a big head and puffed up words.

Would you receive his message?

Dear, it would not matter if I had 'creds' or if I was nice. Trins will be trins. Your brainwashing is pretty much through and through.

Politics and religion. People are not reasonable or rational when it comes down to it. I was holding my own on the other forum.

They had to kill me and swipe my presence in order to keep the truth from infiltrating even their own.

Truth cannot be denied. Firewalls are one partition away from the same idea which permeates across the ethers.

Even Shiloh was complaining about non-trins and Arians becoming more prevalent. We will not be denied. Although I am promoting Shema specifically.

You do an excellent job of denying the truth, so this statement is not true. Your platitude about firewalls make no sense, even to a network engineer.

[ayin jade]

It may be cool to you. But to impose this idea on the true monotheists of the world is to not do YHWH any favors. The Jew, the Muslim and the Sikh.

True monotheists?

Ok, so out of curiosity, do you consider the muslim, sikh, and non-messianic jew to be saved?

[Guest]

.... It may be cool to you. But to impose this idea on the true monotheists of the world is to not do YHWH any favors. The Jew, the Muslim and the Sikh....

Unless You Know These Two

And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: Genesis 15:17-18

Unless You Know These Two

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isalah 44:6

You Will Never Know The God Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

Nor Will You Ever Be Called By His Holy Name

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

You Will Never Know The LORD God Of Israel

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: Deuteronomy 6:4-6

Nor The Power Of His Precious Blood

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:17-21

And Unless You Should Believe That He Is

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

And That He Saves Those Who Believe In Him

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

You Will Never Carry

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Revelation 2:17

His Holy Name

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:3-4

Never

- - - - - - - - - - - -

So Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:25-27

And Be Blessed Beloved.... Or Not

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning.

If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 1 John 2:20-26

Love, Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus cannot be God because Jesus spoke of his God as the one God. The same one of Abraham Isaac and Moses.

The problem is that you need to understand when Jesus is speaking as God and when He is speaking as man. Jesus was both God and man, 100% of each. Jesus prayed, dealt with temptation, etc. as a man in order to be a righteous model for us to follow. He related to God as a man in order to show us how to do it.

Jesus also did things that only God can do. He exercized personal power over nature, death and demons. He also claimed to be eternal life, which is really over the top if Jesus is only a man. He also absolved sin from a person which even His enemies acknowledged as something belonging to God. He even recieves worship, before and after His resurrection/ascension.

In addition, Jesus is to be proclamed "Lord" which in the first century, when Bible was being written in the shadow of the Roman Empire, it was a very radical and dangerous thing to call anyone but Caeasar "Lord." You need to realize that "Lord" in terms of Caesar, was a defied title, and the Bible sets Jesus up as a deity in contest with Caesar. To declar Caesar as "Lord" was to acknowledge his deity. So when the writers of the NT declared that Jesus is "Lord" that deified rivalry between the god Caesar vs. the true "Lord" and "God" Jesus, would not have been lost on those believers in the first century. To declare Jesus as "Lord" was to proclaim Him as God.

Wait a minute. Did you just do a switcharoo on me? I asked you Shiloh where your GLORY OF GOD post was which negates my SHEMA posts as the first principle of the universe. 'Cmon now, please tell me so we can go on with our little tete au tete.

You are like seeing double and I ain't drunk. I am nothead. I can only see a little byte at a time. Plz be patient with me.

Unless this so-called post is non-existent. Why would you do that Shiloh?

I did not say that I had anything to negate your claim that the shema is the first principle of the universe. I said that your claim that the shema is the first principle of the universe is a bogus, made up claim. The Bible does not present it as "the first principle of the universe."

I said that my "principle" is that the chief end of man is the glory of God. I said that the Bible teaches that all we do is to glorify Him. (Matt. 5:16, I Cor. 6:20, 10:31, 14:25; Col. 3:17, 23; I Peter 2:12)

The problem I see is your inability to respond to what I pointed out as far as what calling Jesus "Lord" meant to the early believers. They clearly believed Jesus was God. Jesus made clear and unambiguous statements that He was God.

Even Shiloh was complaining about non-trins and Arians becoming more prevalent. We will not be denied.

HUH??? When did I say anything about that? I think you read stuff into my posts that I did not intend. You seem to have a knack for misrepresenting my comments.

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree with Shiloh. Jesus can be 100% God and human, just as i am 100% human and 100% self-aware.

He didn't seem to be aware he was YHWH. He never said he was, although it might seem so INDIRECTLY.

The argument that Jesus did not say, "I am God" is a weak argument. Jesus made explicit claims to deity in many places and it was clear, even to His enemies that He was claiming not only divine prerogative, but also divine personage.

Jesus' claim to be the Son of God was a claim to deity. Those who deny Jesus’ Deity counter that Jesus claimed to be the “Son of God” but did not actually claim to be God. The good news is that by claiming to be the Son of God, Jesus was in actuality claiming to be God. Jesus claims to be the Son of God in John 3:18. Buswell correctly states that:

“In Jewish usage, the term “son of…” did not generally imply any subordination, but rather equality and identity of nature. Thus Bar Kokhba, who led the Jewish revolt (132-135 A.D.) in the reign of Hadrian, was called by a name that means “Son of the Star.” It is supposed that He took this name to identify himself as the very Star predicted in Numb. 23:14. the name Son of Consolation (Acts 4:36) doubtless means, “The Consoler.” “Sons of Thunder” (Mark 3:17) probably means “Thunderous men.” “Son of man” especially as applied to Christ in Daniel 7:13 and constantly in the New Testament essentially means “the Representative Man.” Thus, for Christ to say, “I am the Son of God” was understood by His contemporaries as identifying Himself as God, equal with the Father, in an unqualified sense.” (J. Oliver Buswell, A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion Grand Rapids: Zondervan 1962)

When Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the religious leaders took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy. The fact that His enemies sought to stone Him to death for blasphemy, is proof that they understood His words to mean that He was claiming to be God.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

(John 10:28-33)

As can be seen above, Jesus did not correct their understanding of his words. He did not argue that He had been misunderstood.

Jesus claimed to be the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1: 8 and Revelation 22:13. Yet this is a title that YHVH reserves for Himself, alone. YHVH calls Himself “The first and the last” in Isaiah 44:4, in 44:6 and in 48:12. In Isaiah 44:6, YHVH says that there is no God beside Him. There is NO ONE who can share the description of first and last with YHVH. Yet, Jesus clearly assumes that title, meaning that He is God. Consider also the following Scriptures:

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

(Revelation 21:5-6)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(John 14:6)

This is important because Jesus is making Himself the focus of salvation. Jesus is saying that HE is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. He is declaring Himself to be the personification of Truth. Only YHVH could make such a declaration.

In addition, Jesus' at His trial acknolwedged that His divinity:

But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need? You have now heard his blasphemy. What is your judgment?" They answered, "He deserves death."

(Mat 26:63-66)

Jesus used a common rabbinic response where the question is caused to serve as the affirmation of itself ("You have said so"). It turns the quesetion into a statement, essentially. Jesus' response incurs the penalty for blasphemy. Furthermore, He applies to Himself the Messianic title of "THE Son of Man" and in Mat. 24:30, He claims that He will be coming in power and in glory.

Jesus made very explicit claims to deity, but His audience were Jews. What many people miss is that Jesus, in very Jewish/Hebraic terms explicity laid claim to be God and what is more important even, is that Jesus ACTED like God. He raised the dead, had power over nature, and even claimed to be able to raise HIMSELF from the dead!! He absolved sins, a privilege of God alone and even received worship, also a privilege that belongs only to God. Jesus' taught in His own authority, which was not done and is still not done in Jewish culture today. Rabbis always base their teachings on that of previous Rabbis. But Jesus' forumla was, "You have heard it said... but I say unto you."

The Bible makes all kinds of claims to Jesus' deity as if it were common knowledge.

[~candice~]

Jesus made very explicit claims to deity, but His audience were Jews. What many people miss is that Jesus, in very Jewish/Hebraic terms explicity laid claim to be God and what is more important even, is that Jesus ACTED like God. He raised the dead, had power over nature, and even claimed to be able to raise HIMSELF from the dead!! He absolved sins, a privilege of God alone and even received worship, also a privilege that belongs only to God. Jesus' taught in His own authority, which was not done and is still not done in Jewish culture today. Rabbis always base their teachings on that of previous Rabbis. But Jesus' forumla was, "You have heard it said... but I say unto you."

The Bible makes all kinds of claims to Jesus' deity as if it were common knowledge.

Shiloh that was a fantastic post overall, but this point stood out even more to me. It's the first time I've seen this point presented in a trinitarian debate. When you understand the Hebraic v's Greek thinking, it makes sense that Jesus demonstrated / acted / lived His claim to be divine, rather than merely orating an academic claim to be divine. That's not to say we cannot make such an argument from what He said, but the claims of His life were loud and clear to His immediate audience. Well done