Rapture References Part Two

[Rick-Parker]

No, I'm not a glutton for punishment, but I feel that it is my leading to post this second part of Mr. Kelley's article. It is only fair to Mr. Kelley.

Everyone knows how I feel (I am in total agreement with the article and believe that the Scriptures provided are proof of that position.) I can say nothing else to further the argument put forward by Mr. Kelley's and the Bible's proof leading through the Holy Spirit. So I will not be responding to any attacks about context or understanding. I expect rebuttal, but please address them to the article and not to me. If you wish to debate Mr. Kelley, I'm sure he would welcome any questions you may have. He can be emailed at questions@gracethrufaith.com. So, here is part two:

In part one of this series we explored some of the clearest hints from the Old Testament that the Lord has always intended to rapture the Church before the End Times judgments begin. This time we

[lekh l'kha]

I never posted in the last thread, because I know that "pretribbers" and "postribbers" cannot see one another's viewpoints, not matter here long we all argue and debate this question. I never asked what all this schatological debate has to do with evangelizing the lost, either

(only you will know what I mean by that, Parker 1 ).

The problem is the moment threads like this start, then often the person who started the thread accuses those who disagree with his position of following/teaching false doctrine and and whatever. Nobody's believing a lie from the devil if he believes in a post trib rapture, and vice-versa. There a very few Christians who deliberately teach a theology/doctrine knowing that it's false, and if they do there's probably some sort of status/prestige or monetary benefit invloved. So we can actually debate doctrine without accusing one another.

So I'm a pre-millenialist who is also post-tribulationist, but I love the Christians who believe in a pre-trib rapture, because almost all of them have a zeal for God that is unsurpassed, though matched by many who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.

But I do think there are serious flaws in the pre-trib position - even when pointing out that Lot was removed from Sodom and that Jesus stated that at the time of His return, things will be just as they were in the days of Noah - because even in pointing these things out, the pre-trib rapture guys OVERlook some very, very important facts:

1) The DAY of the judgment of Pharaoh and his armies = the deliverance of the redeemed (same day).

2) The DAY of the judgment of Sodom = the deliverance of Lot (same day).

3) The DAY the floodwaters were poured out = the deliverance of Noah, because the judgment-floodwaters is what lifted the ark "out of" the world, and Noah and the redeemed family were IN the world UNTIL the seventh of those final seven days.

4) It was for refusal to worship "the image of the beast" (Nebuchadnezzar's image) that God's FAITHFUL REMNANT who refused to worship it WERE THROWN INTO the burning fiery furnace - and the heat of the furnace was INCREASED SEVEN-FOLD to add to Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego's tribulation, BEFORE they were delivered out of it, and the Son of God walked among them in it and helped them endure it without being harmed BEFORE they were delivered out of it:

Then Nebuchadnezzar came near the door of the burning fiery furnace. He answered and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come forth and come here. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth from the middle of the fire." (Dan 3:26)

"And when they complete their testimony, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war against them and will overcome them and kill them... And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them." (Rev 11:7-12).

5). The affliction of the Israelites at the hand of Pharaoh and the Egyptians WAS INCREASED BEFORE the judgment of Pharaoh and his armies came to = the deliverance of the redeemed, AND the Israelites were STILL IN EGYPT while the judgment-plagues were being poured oout upon Egypt, BUT like the Lord's promise to keep His Church from the hour of trial that is to come upon the world, the Israelites were kept from being harmed by the judgment plagues that were being poured out upon Egypt.

You simply cannot use Biblical history as a "precedent" for a PRE-trib rapture. It just does not work. BUT THAT'S NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM:

The other problem is that GREAT tribulation (Greek: MEGAS tlipsis) is only mentioned 3 times in the New Testament:

i) The Olivet Discourse, where the Lord stated that FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE, the days of the great tribulation will be shortened (Mat.21: 21-22).

ii) The Lord's warning to the Christians of Thyatira that if THEY did not repent of following the doctrines of a false prophetess (aptly named Jezebel), HE would throw them into GREAT tribulation (GreeK: MEGAS thlipsis) (Rev.2: 18-22), and Jesus issued this warning to them AFTER He had commended them for their love, faith, patience, service and their works.

iii) John's reference in the Revelation to the saints who had come OUT OF the great tribulation (Rev.7: 14). LIKE SHADRACH, MESHACH AND ABEDNEGO, they were only delivered AFTER they had been thrown into it.

The final problem with the pre-trib rapture stuff is that ALL THE OTHER NEW TESTAMENT REFERENCES TO TRIBULATION, AFFLICTION ETC (WITH THE EXCEPTION OF TWO VERSES), are in reference to the tribulation, affliction etc experienced in some way or another BY THE SAINTS (normally at the hand of the authorities of this world). ONE OF THOSE EXCEPTIONS speaks about at the time of Jesus, the world being REPAID with tribulation for the tribulation the world had brought upon the saints (just like Pharaoh and his armies were REPAID on the same day as the deliverance of the redeemed chosen people) (2Thes.1: 5-8).

The only other exception to the rule is Paul's reference to tribulation and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek (Rom.2: 9).

As I mentioned, ALL the other 35+ New Testament references to tribulation. affliction, etc are in reference to the tribulation, affliction etc experienced in some way or another BY THE SAINTS (normally at the hand of the authorities of this world).

ALL the above facts point to the many, many BIG holes in the pre-trib position.

But hey, the pre-tribbers love God and His Messiah and His return, and are filled with zeal for God.

So, no problem

Lekh

[Rick-Parker]

The reason that this is important is that we are in the last days and people need to know what is going to happen and when.

I don't have ill feelings with anyone else about their position, the problem comes when others act like you don't know what your talking about, that you have no basis for your belief, or that you are misrepresenting scripture in order to make your point. We can disagree because this is only a doctrinal issue and not a saving one. But there is a huge portion of the Christian community who believe in the pre-trib rapture, so there has to be a sound scriptural foundation for that belief; not relying on one single theologian or denomination, as some claim. So, now you know where I am coming from.

I don't want to be the focus of this particular debate (I'm not saying you are doing this) on this thread, so we can move on from here.

Be blessed.

[e lansing]

There really is no debate. This is just sad!! When i get some more time i will respond. But it looks like Lekh l'kha is doing a fine job.

[lekh l'kha]

But there is a huge portion of the Christian community who believe in the pre-trib rapture, so there has to be a sound scriptural foundation for that belief; not relying on one single theologian or denomination, as some claim. So, now you know where I am coming from.

I don't want to be the focus of this particular debate (I'm not saying you are doing this) on this thread, so we can move on from here.

Be blessed.

You be blessed, too

It's a non-argument to say that "there has to be a sound scriptural foundation for belief in a pre-tribulation rapture" merely because there is "a huge portion of the Christian community who believe in the pre-trib rapture", and it a non-argument because there is also a huge portion of the Christian community who believe in a post-tribulation rapture, and so there has to be a sound scriptural belief in a post-tribulation rapture.

That sort of illogical reasoning is the same sort of reasoning that is used to interpret the very parts of the Bible that pre-tribulation rapture folks use as proof of a pre-tribulation rapture, as I have already shown clearly in the second post in this thread.

An example of this is the way pre-tribulationists flatly ignore the fact that with the exception of only two out of 35 + New Testament verses, the words "tribulation, affliction" etc found in the New Testament are ALL referring to the tribulation, affliction etc suffered in some form or another by the saints (and normally at the hand of the authorities of this world). Pre-tribulationists flatly ignore the fact that the New Testament promises us that we will be save from God's wrath - not from tribulation:

"I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." (Joh 16:33)

"... confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God." (Act 14:22).

Pre-tribulationists also flatly ignore the very, very important fact that Lot was delivered from Sodom on the very day it was judged, the angels taking him and his family by the hand and literally whisking them out of Sodom (there was no time for Lot to run all the way to the distant mountain from which he watched the destruction of Sodom - a biblical type of the rapture).

Pre-tribulationists also flatly ignore the very, very important fact that the judgment of Pharaoh and his armies (a biblical type of the judgment of the beast and his armies) = the deliverance of the redeemed (same day), and that Egypt is a biblical type of the world, and the affliction of the Israelites under the hand of Pharaoh and his armies was increased before the day of Egypt's final judgment (which was the day of the deliverance of the redeemed), and that the Israelites were still in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out, and that just as the Israelites were kept from being harmed by those plagues, so Jesus promised the saints that we will be kept from the wrath of God, and they flatly ignore the very, very important biblical fact that in the middle of speaking about the sixth bowl of wrath, Jesus tells his saints:

"For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty. Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev 16:14-16).

Jesus is not telling unbelievers to "watch", and to keep their garments." He tells His own followers over and over again to "watch and pray always that you will be able to escape these things (God's judgment that will be poured out upon the world) and to stand before the Son of Man" (Luk.21: 36).

But always, the judgment of the world = the deliverance of the redeemed (same day), as it was in the days of Noah, and "the church" was told three times to "watch and pray" at the time of that first most important event in the history of the universe (the night Jesus was betrayed into the hands of sinners) - and yet "the church" went to sleep, just as ten out of ten virgins went to sleep and were ALL caught by surprise by the bridegroom's return:

"While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept." (Mat 25:5). You would have to add another 2 virgins to the ten if you want to argue (like most pre-tribulationists) that the "pre-tribulationist" virgins were not asleep, and it would will be totally illogical to add virgins that weren't asleep, because there are only ten virgins, and ten out of ten of them went to sleep and were caught unawares by the coming of the bridegroom. The parable of the ten virgins, therefore, is biblical proof of the rapture - period, it is not biblical proof of either a post-tribulation or a pre-tribulation rapture, because it's not referring to tribulation - it's simply the Lord prophetically saying that we will ALL be caught unawares by His return - regardless of whether or not this comes at the close of the greatest time of tribulation the Lord's people will ever have known.

Pre-tribulationists ignore the very, very important biblical fact that we are told directly both in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 that the beast will make war against the saints and overcome them, and that the saints will be given into his hand for three and a half years. But the beast will be overcome by the return of Jesus - the day of the judgment of the beast and his armies = the day of the deliverance of the redeemed, just like the day of the judgment of Pharaoh and his armies = the day of the deliverance of the redeemed.

Pre-tribulationists take the seven-DAY biblical marriage consummation period, and without any biblical precedent or reason, multiply it by 365 to come up with a seven-year marriage consummation period in heaven.

Then there is also the fact that pre-tribulationists flatly ignore the very, very important biblical fact that the Day of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah) is God's appointed time, and it is linked even in Jewish non-Christian theology to THE DAY THE JUDGMENT OF THE WORLD BEGINS, AND THE DAY OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD (once again, the same day).

Pre-tribulationists flatly ignore the very, very important fact that the Israelites sang "the song of Moses" AFTER their redemption from Egypt - which was AFTER the judgment of Pharaoh and his armies became their deliverance, and they sang the song of Moses on the other side of the red sea (Exodus chapters 14 and 15), and the fact that in Revelation 15, which is a parenthetic chapter introducing the seven bowls of wrath, the saints are in heaven singing the song of Moses. Is this before or after the judgment of the beast and his armies = the deliverance of the redeemed? Well, we read about God's judgment of the beast and his armies in the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl of wrath (777), just as Jericho was judged on the 7th day, the 7th time the Israelites marched around the city, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet - and in the middle of speaking about the sixth bowl of wrath, Jesus says to His saints:

"For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty. Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Rev 16:14-16).

Even the "post-tribulation, pre-"bowls of wrath" folks flatly ignore the above facts, and the fact that the Israelites were still in Egypt while those judgment-plagues were being poured out upon Egypt, and yet the LORD miraculosly kept them from being harmed by those judgment plagues. But there deliverance only came when the final plague was poured out upon Egypt - the judgment of Pharaoh and his army in the red sea, which became the deliverance of the redeemed (same day).

Those of us who believe in a post-tribulation rapture see a sound scriptural foundation for that belief, and we see all the holes in the pre-tribulation rapture view.

The reason that this is important is that we are in the last days and people need to know what is going to happen and when.

Exactly - but it's illogical to assume that such a statement favors either a post-tribulation or pre-tribulation rapture. And now I've just explained to you what the Bible teaches us about what is going to happen and when, so I hope you take notice, because it doesn't help teaching Christians they are going to escape coming under the affliction of Pharaoh and his armies of Egyptians (the beast and his armies) BEFORE they are going to be delivered by their rapture ON THE SAME DAY as the judgment of the beast and his armies. And it doesn't help to flatly ignore whose tribulation is being referred to in all except 2 of the New Testament verses which speak about tribulation, affliction, etc.

Nevertheless, when the final great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the authorities of this world arrives, there will be just as many who believed in a pre-tribulation rapture who will remain standing in their faith, as their will be from among those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture, because the criteria which decides who will stand and who will fall has nothing to do with eschatological interpretation of the Bible, and everything to do with:

1) Whose sheep he/she is; and

2) Who he/she is trusting in - because Peter trusted in himself, but the Lord told us over and over to "watch and pray".

God bless you, Parker 1, and I mean what I say when I say that I love people who believe ion a pre-tribulation rapture, because they have a zeal for Christ and His return that is unsurpassed, though matched by many who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture

Lekh

[e lansing]

Got some time! Thanks lekh l'kha for saving me time!.

I have some questions about what you stated at the end of your post. You said that when the great tribulation arrives, there will be as many Christians that hold the pre position as there will be of those that hold the post. A theory i have comes from 2Thess 2:3 and 2tim 4:1. This falling away, thought that it could happen as the result of so many holding to the pre-trib position and then so many turning from Jesus or His church, as the result of the lack of creditability of those churchs who taught the pre position as fact and this not being reveal until Anti-Christ is revealed. I have also seen where people believe that 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim:4: are connected to the Abomination that causes desolation, and that when that happens then many depart. However, this then would be a reference to the Jewish nation because of this new temple will be in Israel is where this event of abomination is to happen. The problem i have with this is that these passages are speaking about christians falling away from the Lord and at the time Paul wrote 2Thess most jews did not believe in Jesus. It speaks of departing from the faith in Jesus. Who do you say 2Thess 2:3 and 2Tim 4:1 are referring to? Anybody who has a thought on that, post it!

[Rick-Parker]

people who believe ion a pre-tribulation rapture, because they have a zeal for Christ and His return that is unsurpassed, though matched by many who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture

Lekh

Indeed. Conversations such as these show both sides of the issue we are discussing, allowing the reader to evaluate, and make decisions on which position they believe the Scriptures teach. That is one of the reasons that such discussions have their place in forums such as this. I appreciate and respect your position on this issue, as I believe that you respect the position that I have presented. That is not the attitude of some others who have responded to discussions such as this one. Those types I choose to ignore instead of arguing with. That just comes with maturity, of which I am still developing.

Thanks,

Rick

[traveller]

Nice thread, fellas

[e lansing]

In part one of this series we explored some of the clearest hints from the Old Testament that the Lord has always intended to rapture the Church before the End Times judgments begin.

How do you draw your or the writers intent? On what passage of scripture is this theory based on? Hard to answer without Conjecture! in my opinion.

In His definitive teaching on the End Times,

If you really believe that Jesus teaching is definitive, why do reject Matthew 24 in terms of it being applicable to the Church or Christians today?

the Lord warned Israel they would be hated and persecuted by all nations because of Him (Matt. 24:9). He said many would fall away from the faith, and would betray and hate each other (Matt. 24:10). He said their Temple would be desecrated by another Abomination of Desolation, and when that happened those in Judea (the New Testament name for Israel) would have to flee into the mountains immediately (Matt. 24:15) He told them to pray that their flight wouldn

[spiritman]

I've debated this before, more than on one occasion; and I've come to the conclusion that the rapture will indeed be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Concerning the differences between the pre and mid and post trib folks it seems to be a matter of interpretation.

Here are some interesting facts that are hard to ingore.

1. The definition of the English term (caught up) in the Greek (harpazo) And the context in which it is used. in 2 Corth 12:2; 12:4; 1Thess 4:17; Revelation 12:5

The definition is to be caught up, snatched away.

2. Also after chapter 4 in the book of Revelation, the church is not mentioned again until chapter 19

3. During the the weeks of Daniel after the sixth week it refers to the subjects as Israel. not the the church.

These facts stand out in my mind as very over whelling of evidence for a pre-trib rapture.