Communion....

[ServingHim]

When we are baptized, are we literally burying the flesh, or are we symbolically proclaiming that we are dead to our old self and alive now in Christ?

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4 (RSV) . . . I believe that when we are baptized, the very life of Christ enters into our souls, and it is HE who lives in us...now whether we 'continue' to live IN HIM is our choice. He loves us that much that He gives us FREE WILL to chose to abide IN HIM or not. :il: Again, I don't think that one can humanly, carnally explain how the Holy spirit lives in each of us, the SAME God, Same Jesus, Same HOLY SPIRIT living in billions of PEOPLE, with no boundaries of time. :il: Again, it's a mystery of our faith.

You didn't answer the question.

I tried to answer it the best I knew how...

[nebula]

Genesis 9:4

But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Leviticus 3:17

"This shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings: you shall eat neither fat nor blood."'

Leviticus 6:30

But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in The Most Holy Place shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire.

Leviticus 7:26

Moreover you shall not eat any blood in any of your dwellings, whether of bird or beast.

Leviticus 7:27

Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people."'

Well, all I can say is that if the wine/grape juice really does turn into blood, then the Lord is violating His own command!

But how do you reconcile these verses?

[Guest charlie]

I didn't see my belief among the choices. I think it is both his spiritual body and blood, and it is also done in memory. Jesus said both so that's what I believe. If I recall correctly this is how the Eastern Orthodox view it as well.

[Guest shadow2b]

-Not sure where it can go! But, it sounds like this has been (heatedly) debated in the past???

If so, here is my challenge.

Pull out an electron microscope. Have communion in your home, but during communion examine the elements under the microscope. If the food miraculously changes from a carbohydrate to a protein then submit your findings. If it doesn't, then the obvious answer is left. It is symbolic.

Actually, the experiment isn't even necessary because Jesus, Himself, said He was speaking spiritually.

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus was obviously speaking metaphorically.

Blessings...

-Bro.OW----HOW CUUD YAS Duzz THIS ???tsk.tsk.tsk.--for shayme--fer shayme-fer shayme---yas dunn went & stoleded ever werd I wuz agonna sayz---Buyt it duz did juan thang--it shews yas gotz guud tastey-buddz--bubby

[Old Timer]

Nebula's post of the Old Testament verses should have settled the matter.

Here's a link (Adobe Acrobat file) that discusses this:

The Sacrifice of the Mass

Warning, this will not be pleasant reading for Roman Catholics.

[Guest charlie]

*sigh*

[ServingHim]

you're most welcome to listen to anyone you desire, old-timer. Thanks for posting that link. I am not offended whatsoever. I'm used to it.

If you want MORE than one person's perspective on what the True Sacrifice of the Mass is, then for your further reading pleasures, please do read:

THIS website packed full of the TRUTH of the Sacrifice of the Mass

and

THIS webiste that further explains the TRUTH

and

THIS website explains in detail where it come from in Scripture

and

THIS website is oh so interesting

and

THIS website details the mystery of HEAVEN on EARTH

and

THIS website depicts the Mass from the Book of Revelations

as well as

THIS website explains the Eucharist to people who are very closed-minded, ALL from a former Presbyterian Minister

There are many many more sites and thousands of books to chose from, but this is a good start. By all means, don't read ANY of them if you are interested in only knowing what you know and ending there. By all means, don't read any of them if you are afraid of what you might find. Peace and thanks for your link ... it was quite interesting; I always enjoy reading a good 'fiction' depiction of what others THINK truth is ... but TRUTH is in the Person of Jesus Christ. Peace. :il:

[ServingHim]

oh, I almost forgot these few if anyone else would like to read further:

THIS is all about "The Marriage Supper of the Lamb"

and

THIS is all about the Holy Meal that is foreshadowed in the Passover Meal

and

THIS defines what 'sacrifice of the Mass' means

and

THIS has a million questions and answers on what the Holy Eucharist is

and

THIS is just a plethora of information .... could take you all month to get through this site

and

THIS is more information about what the "Sacrifice of the Mass" TRULY is; not just opinions

and

THIS explains WHY the Mass is the highest form of Prayer to the Father

and

THIS notes questions and answers about the Mass

and

THIS contains more information regarding the Sacrifice of the Mass, what it IS, and where it came from

Thus, this concludes the information for now that I'd like to share...now it's up to you. Read it all and pray honestly with an open heart, OR ignore it all....the choice is yours.

Also, just remember, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, is the Eternal Sacrifice... the reason of Joy in Heaven. It was promised by Jesus in John 6, and Jesus instituted it on the Last Supper on Holy Thursday, giving the order to his disciples to do it:

"He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying: "take it and eat, this is my body; do this in memory of me". Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the new and everlasting covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins . Do this, as often as you drink it, in memory of me. For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes" (Matt 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke22:19-20, 1Cor.11:24-26).

Calvary and Resurrection: The Holy Mass is a little like Psalm 22: The first 22 verses is Jesus crucified, with 13 prophecies fulfilled to the letter in Jesus at Calvary... but all of a sudden, in verse 23 (or 22 in other Bibles), the crucified appears in the midst of the assembly praising the name of God, until the end of the Psalm... The Mass is something similar: Up to the Communion it is Jesus sacrificed, with his blood separated from his flesh, but all of a sudden, in the Communion, the same Jesus sacrificed is now alive in the heart of every Christian who received him, alleluia!... and that's why John Paul II refers usually to it as "the celebration", praise the Lord!, always with thanksgiving for being my prisoner of Love.

... In the Consecration, if the body and the blood are separated, there is a "sacrifice", the sacrifice of the New Covenant, the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ... as "real" as he was "real" as a little humble boy in Bethlehem, and as "real" as he was real as a despised man crucified at Calvary... and now, even more humble that at Bethlehem!... but he is the same Lord of the Universe... in Bethlehem, like a little humble boy; in the Eucharist, just like wine and bread!.

Christ's One Sacrifice: The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is NOT the repetition of what happened at Calvary, rather, it is the greatest miracle of God of time and space, it is exactly as if you were at Calvary on the first Good Friday of the history of humanity, the same sacrifice of Calvary done only once, because "Christ was offered once to bear the sins of mankind" (Heb.9:28)... we have to be at Mass just as if we were at Calvary on Good Friday with Mary and John. It is a re-presentation. Jesus Christ is truly present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in His Glorified Body in the Eucharist. The Sacrifice of the Mass is not a re-sacrifice of Jesus Christ, for such a thing is an impossible blasphemy (Heb.9:12,27, 10:14), but rather, through the separate consecration of bread into His Flesh and wine into His Blood, Jesus Christ presents Himself in His glorified Body to God, in atonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world. The Eucharistic Celebration is thus one single sacrifice with the sacrifice of Christ because it makes present the sacrifice of the Cross, because it is its memorial, and because it applies the fruit of the Cross. Through the Mass, the sufferings of every member of the Body of Christ are united with the sufferings of Christ on the Cross, and all with the glory of every member of the Body of Christ in heaven, made glorious by Christ. The entire heavenly portion of the Body of Christ, angels and saints, is present at every Mass, celebrating the mystery in which God gave each of them a part (Rev.5:6-14).

The Eternal Sacrifice of the Mass is the "eternal and permanent sacrifice" of Num.28:1-6 and Ex.29:38-43... if it is "permanent", is got to be now, and it is!, in the daily Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist, and not only twice a day as in Num.28, but over 500,000 times a day, every day!... and if it is "eternal", is got to be eternally in Heaven, and it is!, "the lamb standing, like slaughtered" of Rev.5:6, just in the center of the Throne of Heaven, the reason of all praise and joy and singing of the saved for an eternity.

...And now you can have it... free... go and receive Him... daily. Now the Holy Mass is celebrated over 500,000 times daily all over the world. Even in Japan, it is very easy to find ... all over the world, the faithful can receive the Eucharist daily: In Communist China, India, Africa, North, Central and South America, in Australia, in Communist Russia, Poland and Yugoslavia, and all Europe... it's so available, and so free!... let's receive Him daily... every day! ... He is madly in love with us! He says ... 'COME'!

"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down thereof My name

has been glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place incense is offered

to My Name, and a Pure Offering: for My Name is great among the

Gentiles, saith the Lord Almighty." Malachias 1:11, Septuagint

Every minute of every day, all over the world, the Catholic Church celebrates the sacrifice of the Mass, and offers incense and a 'Pure Offering', the Holy Eucharist, the 'True Presence' of Jesus Christ to the Name of GOD. How many other Churches comply with this command from the Lord Almighty? How many other Churches can comply at all?

'Blessed are those who are invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb!" Rev. 19:9 Peace! :il:

[ServingHim]

And you shall set the bread of the Presence on the table before me always. Ex 25:30

and the bread of the Presence...Ex 35:13

the table with all its utensils, and the bread of the Presence; Ex 39:36

And over the table of the bread of the Presence... Num 4:7

So the priest gave him the holy bread; for there was no bread there but the bread of the Presence, 1 Sam 21:6

So Solomon made all the vessels that were in the house of the LORD: the golden altar, the golden table for the bread of the Presence, 1 Kings 7:48

So Solomon made all the things that were in the house of God: the golden altar, the tables for the bread of the Presence, 2 Chron 4:19

how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, Matt 12:4

how he entered the house of God, when Abi'athar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, Mark 2:26

how he entered the house of God, and took and ate the bread of the Presence, Luke 6:4

Presence with a capital 'P' denotes God's PRESENCE...does it not? Hmmmmm ... 'BREAD OF PRESENCE' as seen throughout the OLD TESTAMENT. Does anyone deny that God was TRULY PRESENT as the Scriptures say He was...PRESENT in the BREAD...the "bread of Presence"? Isn't that the MANNA they are talking about? What about Jesus' words ...

31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" 32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world." 34 They said to him, "Lord, give us this bread always." 35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. John 6:31-35

4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or not. 5 On the sixth day, when they prepare what they bring in, it will be twice as much as they gather daily." 6 So Moses and Aaron said to all the people of Israel, "At evening you shall know that it was the LORD who brought you out of the land of Egypt, 7 and in the morning you shall see the glory of the LORD, because he has heard your murmurings against the LORD. For what are we, that you murmur against us?" 8 And Moses said, "When the LORD gives you in the evening flesh to eat and in the morning bread to the full, because the LORD has heard your murmurings which you murmur against him -- what are we? Your murmurings are not against us but against the LORD." Ex 16:4-8

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." John 6:53-58

It is just so clear to me, IMHO ... :il:

[Old Timer]

ServingHim, a question; In the Mass, is the priest still the only one who drinks the wine or has that been changed? Do all partake of both the bread and the wine?

Thank you.