Regarding Christians Who Break The Law

[Matthitjah]

Blein,

Consider this;

Ac

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

There is no inconsistency between the two pieces of Scripture.

It is understood that Paul is not suggesting that we follow the worlds magistrates in rebellion against God. Paul himself was jailed, beaten, and killed in opposition to the worldy rebellion of this (the world's) kingdom's magistrates. (And yes, I did say was killed, he actually died once and the Lord resurrected him and he went right back to Preaching the Gospel. )

Peace,

Dave

[Blien]

I've been thinking about it... the only example I can find in the Bible to support what you have suggested is Daniel.. still kind of iffy about it.. but the Lord knows what is correct.

[nebula]

I've been thinking about it... the only example I can find in the Bible to support what you have suggested is Daniel.. still kind of iffy about it.. but the Lord knows what is correct.

Are not Daniel and his three friends not good enough evidence?

That's actually two incidences, BTW.

Also consider that Paul and Peter would not have been executed Roman style if not done by the Roman authorities - meaning in their eyes they broke Roman law.

But I do not understand why you are questioning this? If the Lord told you to go to China and preach in an underground church (not sanctioned by the governement), would you believe as if you had a conflict of interests?

[wyguy]

Good examples would be the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, would would not obey King Nebuchadnezzar's order to worship a golden image. (Daniel 3)

Also, Rahab the prostitute lied to save the lives of the two Israeli spies and was blessed. ( (Joshua 2:1; 6:17-25)

And Proverbs 6:30 says: "Men do not despise a thief, if he steal to satisfy his soul when he is hungry."

[canuckamuck]

In the persecuted nations of Asia, the faithful do not generally build church buildings, rather they meet in predetermined places (ie house churches).

The majority of the laws against christian churches have to do with illegal gatherings, not building code infractions.

These people are obeying God by coming together to fellowship. I think God is OK with that.

The situation in Haiti is confusing at best, and I think we all know that the missionaries were just doing what they felt was the right thing to do.

In third world countries the legal process is often the most unlikely way to get things done because the legal process itself is in the hands of lawless people

[Guest]

.... In China, the governement needs to give you permits to become a registered church with the state. No one can build a church without one.. so this is their law.

Now regarding those who build churchs in china without this permit, they are breaking the law and so I revert back to that verse in the Bible ....

God's

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 4:23

Kids

Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 5:14-16

Shine In The Dark

And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Acts 4:18-10

>>>>>()<<<<<<

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2 Timothy 3:12

Dear Brother

Take About An Hour Or So And Watch One Of These Clips (Blocked Out Of China By Their Government) Each Night For The Next Four Days

You Will Gain An Understanding Of The Suffering And Of The Joy Our Family Experiences For His Name's Sake In China

And Of The Wonder Of The LORD's Astonishing Mercy And Amazing Grace Toward The Peoples Of China

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:17-18

>>>>>()<<<<<

The Cross In China (Chinese Revival Story)

These Clips Of God's Grace Upon China Blessed Me

So I Share With Saint And Sinner Alike

The Testimony In Part Four Of The Young Pleasant Girl

Of The Convictions She Receives While Observing The Creation Around Her

And Of The Hymns Of Grace God Puts Into Her Heart For All Of China

Is Very Telling Of The Love God Pours Into Lands And Peoples

And Well Worth The Fifty-One Minutes Spent Watching

For Anyone Looking To See God's Grace

And To Hear Good News

From Ancient Lands

Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

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Jesus in China - Part 1. Seeds of Blood

http://returnnow.org/2007/11/23/jesus-in-c...seeds-of-blood/

Jesus in China - Part 2. The Bitter Cup

http://returnnow.org/2007/11/23/jesus-in-c...the-bitter-cup/

Jesus in China - Part 3. The Spring of Life

http://returnnow.org/2007/11/23/jesus-in-c...spring-of-life/

Jesus in China - Part 4. The Canaan Hymns

http://returnnow.org/2007/11/23/jesus-in-c...e-canaan-hymns/

[Blien]

Thanks brother Joe, I'll definitely take a look as you have suggested. I really appreciate you sharing this with me.

Thanks everyone also for responding, I really do appreciate hearing from all of you. Charitow, I didn't know that Dave asked me a question which I didn't answer so I will take a look again.

Now regarding why I am still questioning.. Daniel and his friend didn't build any object, church or alter in Babylon which we can really say, this is was against the law. However, I also see how your points come into play because Daniel and his friends were commanded to not worship the Lord their God. Much like how Peter and John were commanded not to speak in the name of Jesus again. In such cases I completely agree, we don't need to obey men but God. However, when it involves building a church or.. taking children outside the country without any legal documentation I think there is some kind of blur here which I'm trying to understand. Do we do as GOD said and obey them or not? It is God's commandment against God's commandment... its not that there is a contradiction, I just wonder which one takes precedent?

I guess the reason this is all bothering me so much is because of the situation with my current Sunday school children. God has revealed it to me long before that they would be "taken away" from me by asking me to teach false doctrines. This has come to pass and they are getting ready to pass this requirement. And because I am under the authority of the church board members there is nothing I can do..

I will not open my mouth to teach false doctrine but on the other hand.. should I just resign from my position? Or should I secretly (against their order) proceed with the truth I am currently teaching? That's my delima, so I want to understand what is right in God's eyes. After all, all authority is ordained by God....?

[nebula]

Golly, Blien - I know that's tough.

You want to be there for the children, but you don't want to teach false doctrine.

OK, I don't know what I would do in such a situation - because one never knows until one is in the middle of such - but what I think I would do is to refuse to teach the false doctrine. Just like Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah (the true Hebrew names of Daniel's three friends) refused to bow to the idol. They were honest with the king that they could not bow to an idol - and they declared faith that God could save them, but even if He didn't they would not bow.

So, if you can, tell the children what is going on (hopefully they are old enough to understand, at least somewhat?). Maybe tell them this story and then ask them how they would deal with such . . . and then now that they are thinking about things . . . ask them how they would deal with (and explain the situation you are going through, only without saying it was you). Then from there, perhaps let them know that you are having to chose between teaching what you believe is false or lose your teaching/mentoring position with them. See where it goes from there?

Maybe that's "dirty pool", but kids are smarter than we give them credit for, I believe. And they should know from your perspective what is going on should you be forced to leave.

I do not advise quitting. Stand strong where you are. If you must leave, let it be them that force you/drag you away. But don't quit, don't give in, be faithful to and through the end.

Perhaps the Lord will deliver you? But even if not, do not compromise, and do not give ground for the children to be told you left them.

BUT, tell the children they need to submit to their authority, and they must not harbor unforgiveness.

Let them know what doctrine you are being required to preach (in brief) and why you are against it. Then encourage them to seek the Lord on the matter through prayer and reading Scripture. Perhaps this will work strengthening of their spiritual muscles in ways they would not have otherwise?

So there are some ideas. Seek the Lord on this - good ideas, bad ideas, some good and some bad, needs some tweaking but on the right track?

Prayers for your direction and peace

[Matthitjah]

Blien,

I'm not sure what the false doctrine you are beings asked to preach are. However, if you feel that strongly I would urge that you approach the Pastor first. Meeting with him privately and expressing your concerns. Be prepared to refute the false Doctrine, Biblically. If he does not hear you, you may then approach the Board, privately. Being prepared to refute Biblically the false Doctrines.

If that doesn't work, pray for them and ask the Lord how to proceed. It may be time for you to leave. If what you say is true the children are pawns in this spiritual warfare and their parents are responsible for their personal saftey in this regard. I woudn't mention a thing to them or the parents unless it comes down to a time to leave or a showdown where you are asked to leave.

I would continue to teach and preach the Truth to them until things work themselves out. I would refuse to teach or preach the false doctrines until I was forced out or asked to leave. When the new teacher comes in the difference will be readily evident to the Children and the parents and then the parents, the Board, and the Pastor will be responsible for the situation before a Holy, Just, and Righteous God. God will take care of the children.

Meanwhile, remember that you are going through this process for the sake of the Truth and that your Faith will only grow stronger. You didn't arrive there by accident and you're not in the situation for any other reason than the Glory of the Lord. You have even stated that the Lord told you this was coming. He's in the drivers seat brother.

Maybe you could explain the false doctrines?

Peace,

Dave

P.S. Read up on the exhortations of Paul to Timothy about how to proceed Biblically, keep your Peace.