Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree, not all baptism is immersion in water. I am not sure why it is important that a word be "religious" in Greek. Are all words in Greek "religious"?

Because people of your ilk treat baptism as if the only application of it pertains to the religious ritual of immersion in water. My point is that placing anything in something else is by definition baptism. So far, you have taken EVERY reference to baptism as referring to immersion in water and it is an unwarranted approach to the text.

The implications are too strong for water baptism being necessary beginning with the baptism by John to the baptism administered by the apostles and the early church.

No one is arguing that it is not necessary.

Even the church through the ages. And I am speaking water immersion here. "Look, water, what hindereth me to be baptized?" If not important, then we have confusion.

No one is arguing that it is not important.

Who caused it? Not God because He is not the author of confusion, but man. We disagree and any message to obey the gospel that throws out hearing(learning of the Word), believing(faith), repenting, confessing Jesus as the Son of God, being baptized (in water that you might receive the gift of the Holy Spirit) and encouraging a walk in newness of life (or walking in the Light) is a dangerous teaching.

The real problem is that you have been trained to think that if one does not treat water immersion as necessary for salvation, one does not beleive baptism is important or necessary. Where we disagree is not that baptism important or necessary but as to why it is necessary and important. No one has thrown out anything you mentioned above.

What is being rejected is the notion that baptism affects regeneration of the heart. It does not and there is not a single teaching in Scripture that says otherwise. All you have presented is weak, sloppy theology based off of inferences from Scripture, but no hard teaching. You are teaaching a false gospel that denies the full suffciency of final, once for all, finished work of Christ on the cross and by doing so, you have denied the sufficiency of Christ, Himself.

Your teaching is a heresy and places you and everyone else who believes it outside of the body of Christ and outside of authentic, biblical, New Testament Christianity.

[eis]

It does not and there is not a single teaching in Scripture that says otherwise. All you have presented is weak, sloppy theology based off of inferences from Scripture, but no hard teaching. You are teaaching a false gospel that denies the full suffciency of final, once for all, finished work of Christ on the cross and by doing so, you have denied the sufficiency of Christ, Himself.

Your teaching is a heresy and places you and everyone else who believes it outside of the body of Christ and outside of authentic, biblical, New Testament Christianity.

In your opinion. And that's all it is.

[Guest shiloh357]

It does not and there is not a single teaching in Scripture that says otherwise. All you have presented is weak, sloppy theology based off of inferences from Scripture, but no hard teaching. You are teaching a false gospel that denies the full suffciency of final, once for all, finished work of Christ on the cross and by doing so, you have denied the sufficiency of Christ, Himself.

Your teaching is a heresy and places you and everyone else who believes it outside of the body of Christ and outside of authentic, biblical, New Testament Christianity.

In your opinion. And that's all it is.

And so far, you have not provided any evidence to refute it. All you have done is erect strawman arguments accusing us of denying the importance of baptism. The weakness of your position is evidenced in how little doctrinal support you can muster.

[eis]

And so far, you have not provided any evidence to refute it. All you have done is erect strawman arguments accusing us of denying the importance of baptism. The weakness of your position is evidenced in how little doctrinal support you can muster.

Multiple facts have been presented by myself and a few others in this regard:

Fact: John baptized in the Jordan because there was much water there.

Fact: The Lord was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness

Fact: Jesus said unless a man is born of the water (H20 - my emphasis) and the Spirit, he cannot (note cannot) enter into the kingdom of God.

Fact: Jesus disciples baptized (apparently in the presence of Jesus) this had to be water baptism in keeping with the context of the baptism previously performed.

Fact: Jesus commanded the disciples to go, indirectly he commanded that believers should be baptized that they shall be saved.

Fact: Jesus is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire (fire not discussed here)

Fact: The command was to baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Fact: They commanded hearers to be repent AND be baptized for the remission of sins obviously in keeping with the commandments and examples listed above.

Fact: Baptism will only follow belief. One must first believe before he will be baptized. That is one reason belief is the first commandment is given to those who hear.

Fact: Hearing is an action one does. Belief is an action one does. Repentance is an action one does. Confessing Jesus is an actionone does. Baptism is an action done to one.

Fact: The Ethiopian eunuch easily recognized the need to be baptized and called out for baptism on the road to Gaza. John was taken only after the baptism not before. (Salvation was made complete at baptism)

Fact: Saul was baptized washing away his sin.

Fact: The Phillipian jailer, once taught, believe and was baptized in keeping with the commandment given the apostles (and all believers who wish to be saved)

Fact: Baptism is the Anti-type of the flood through which man is saved

Fact: It is the act of self-sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and the shedding of His blood that atones our sin. It is the gift of grace given by God to whoever believes in Him that if the believer will lay hold of that gift through faith and obedience and only then will he be saved. Obedience is not complete and salvation is not attained, or grace is not received until one is "resurrected" from the watery grave.

Fact: If baptism were other than the conventional water, it is specifically declared, be that of the Holy Spirit or fire.

You may deny any of these because of you hardness of heart, but the facts have been well established. You may twist the meaning of immersion to be "insertion", "covering" or any other verbiage, but it does not change the true meaning that is consistent throughout Scripture. Your denial is only your opinion and I will respect but not validate it.

One last fact: There is no point that can be made to a listener whose retort consists of "it doesn't mean that" or a direct negative imperative doesn't mean something is important. If you don't understand, a good example is: Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. NASB

The retort is "He didn't say anything about NOT being baptized, so it doesn't have anything to do with salvation!"

Edited March 27, 2010 by eis

[John3;16]

Baptism is a command given by God to follow conversion, and it is an important step in obedience, but baptism must follow salvation as in Acts 10:43-48, as Shiloh357 pointed out, the Gentiles that believed; received the Holy Spirit, before they were baptized, as seen in Acts 10 verse 47.

Should belief ever be excluded from baptism? The answer is baptism should always follow salvation. Some of the opposing posts claim baptism is a component of receiving Jesus as Savior, and at least they view it as an act of faith, but you have to be careful not to make it a ritual or sacrament.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Also in Acts 8:36,37 the Ethiopian eunuch asked what would prevent me from being baptized? And Philip answered him, if you believe with all your heart you may, the eunuch then confessed that he believed Jesus was the Son of God. Prior to his confession Philip taught him using scripture. The point is that receiving Christ as Savior has to proceed baptism, and baptism should always follow receiving Jesus.

Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

[nebula]

Fact: Jesus is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire (fire not discussed here)

If "water" is always physical, why is not "fire" likewise physical?

Or why would "fire" be something spiritual and "water" not?

[nebula]

Fact: John baptized in the Jordan because there was much water there.

The Jordan River also has spiritual significance.

[nebula]

Fact: Jesus commanded the disciples to go, indirectly he commanded that believers should be baptized that they shall be saved.

That is your insertion to what Jesus said.

Baptism, and how baptism was to be done, was commanded.

The purpose and reason was not spoken. How one was to be "saved" was neither mentioned nor implied.

[eis]

Fact: Jesus commanded the disciples to go, indirectly he commanded that believers should be baptized that they shall be saved.

That is your insertion to what Jesus said.

Baptism, and how baptism was to be done, was commanded.

The purpose and reason was not spoken. How one was to be "saved" was neither mentioned nor implied.

Fact: Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

NASB

[OneLight]

I bring these as examples only, for all four of these are true, being they are scripture:

Acts 2:21 (New King James Version)

And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Mark 16:16 (New King James Version)

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who says to Me,