Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[Scare Bear]

The Biblical model is repent and place your faith in Christ. And that's that.

And go on your way rejoicing as the Ethiopian Eunuch did AFTER he was baptized in water.

Ummm, in 1 Corinthians 1:17 Paul said "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel."

That's a strange thing to say if baptism was included in the Gospel.

And if you look in the Bible there were many people who were saved apart from baptism:

The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50)

The paralytic man (Matthew 9:2)

The publican (Luke 18:13-14)

The thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43)

They all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. For that matter, we have no record of the Apostles being baptised, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins. (John 15:3)

And in Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those with him were saved before baptism.

Hi wyguy,

Here again, is an opportunity to use others' debate tactics. Their sins were forgiven when, as of then? How about any future sin? How is it that Cornelius was saved before baptism? He had the Holy Spirit upon him and his household? How about all those in Samaria who had been baptized, but the Holy Spirit had not come upon them? Peter and John had to go up and lay their hands on them? What gives about that? The gift of the Holy Spirit that we receive today isn't even manifest as it was in Cornelius' situation, so how can it be argued that the manifest seal on Cornelius is the same as it is on us today? e.g. speaking in tongues.

As far as the first point goes, Paul was sent to preach the gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) and you are correct baptism isn't a part of that. Yet that doesn't nullify the need to be baptized. Paul had to sow the seed and water before the increase would come. The only way baptism would have been of any affect would have been for the hearers to have faith to be obedient.

It should also be noted that if you look at the verses before verse 17 in 1 Corinthians 1 you'll notice something 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. He didn't baptize people because he knew it would cause division. He didn't want people to feel more important than others because they were baptized by him or others. Besides, it's not who does the baptizing that's important it's the person getting baptized that is.

[eis]

It should also be noted that if you look at the verses before verse 17 in 1 Corinthians 1 you'll notice something 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. He didn't baptize people because he knew it would cause division. He didn't want people to feel more important than others because they were baptized by him or others. Besides, it's not who does the baptizing that's important it's the person getting baptized that is.

Right!

Look at the passage:

1 Corinthians 1:17

17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

NASU

Break it down....

"For Christ" -the one who gave Paul the mission

"did not send me to baptize" - He gave me a primary mission

"but to preach" - Get the message out so people would have faith

"the gospel" - the death, burial, resurrection of Christ - 1 Cor 15

"not in cleverness of speech" - he was told to tell THE message (gospel)

"so that the Cross of Christ would not be made void." - Anything that I (Paul) would preach would not be in error and nullify the message.

Looks pretty clear. Paul was to preach the gospel so that the hearer could have faith and obey the gospel of Christ ( 2 Thes1:8)

Using this verse proves nothing against baptism.

[wyguy]

Baptismal regeneration is the belief that a person must be baptized in order to be saved. It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer

[Scare Bear]

No that is not what I said. I did not say we have no part in salvation. I said we play no part in how salvation is obtained. Salvation is not obtained by us operating in our own strength. We cannot save ourselves is what I said. You are either mentally dull or purposefully obtuse.

Again if you play no part in your salvation then what's this "believing and having faith" stuff all about? Is it not your decision that could ultimately save you or condemn you? If an atheist came to the light and said "I believe now" would he be saved by his admission + God's grace? Or was God simply gonna save the atheist all along?

For the record, if you want to discuss with others you might want to stop with the ad homs. Calling someone mentally dull is not a good way to win them over.

No my argument does not make it easy for people to see that. I have only ever maintained that obedience is expected and required for believers. Your problem is that you are trying to justify your religious vanity. The fact that we are not saved by works does NOT mean that action does not take place on our part. Our "action" is to believe and receive the salvation God offers.

So believing and receiving is something you must do. A work. A work is defined as something one does, whether it be physical or mental.

No, it is not. False prophets are distinguished from others in the Bible as people who are especially wicked and lawless. That is not the "average Christian."

That is not being a false prophet. There are people who have religion, but do not have Christ. False prophets are people who pretend to speak for God as His messengers and deceive the masses.

Ok but an "average Christian" or someone who claims to be Christian can say, well, we'll all get to heaven no matter what we do, we just need to be good. Would that not be a false doctrine? A false Prophet? Not everyone that says to Him Lord, Lord will see heaven. They said "Haven't we prophesied in YOUR NAME?" That verse indicates to me that there will be people who claim to be Christians and who earnestly think they're doing right but won't get that crown.

But not all verbs are "work." All actions are verbs, but not all actions are works from a biblcal standpoint.

So Believing is not something you do? It's not a verb?

The point is that you and God are not partners in your obtaining salvation. Salvation is not the product of a synthesis of faith and works in terms of how a person GETS saved. Christ saves us based on His work on the cross, not on the basis of anything we have done. We do not add to plan of redemption. We have nothing to add to salvation.

God does not share Glory or power. Salvation is not something you God engineer together. Salvation is 100% a work of God and God alone which is a gift of His grace that you receive through faith.

But you still need to have that faith... that's your part.

That is a false gospel and if you are relying your efforts, you sliding down a greased pole straight into hell. Your efforts will not avail you anything before God.

Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men,

[Littlelambseativy]

eis

If one is given a gift of any value, yes one will desire to show their gratitude in any way that is pleasing to the one that gave the gift.

As far as salvation and future sin that is why we pray daily and ask God's forgiveness for the sins that we have committed.

May I pose a situation that is most plausible. There are many Bedouin living in the desert areas of Africa or for that matter others in any arid regions. If and when they accept Christ as their Saviour - how are they baptized by immersion? Or is their salvation sufficient ?

The Holy Spirit is very active today. He is your conscience, your inspiration if you have turned your life over to Him and wish to please Jesus.

Because the time is drawing close for the rapture the Holy Spirit is working to seal all those who are coming or have yet

to come to Jesus, but you can see that the Holy Spirit is being drawn back because the time of the end is near - look at the weather alone.

Just because the prevalence of 'speaking in tongues' in not what it used to be does not mean that it is not happening. I believe that new christians in emerging countries are in many ways more attuned to the Holy Spirit than we are . We are too involved with goods that we have and with our jobs and do not always depend solely on Jesus.

As far as having someone come to my home and say I have a gift for you but I left it in the trunk of my car - I would wait for them to go and get it because it would otherwise not be a gift.

[Scare Bear]

In every biblical discussion we find in Scripture about the saints, we find that it was their works that evidenced their faith. Nowhere does their faith evidence their works. In Hebrews 11, every one of those people listed did what they did "by faith." Meaning that the faith had to be there first in order for their works to give visible testimony of it. The works did not create the faith. The works showed that their faith was real. Faith always, 100% of the time, without ONE exception precedes works.

So Noah didn't show his faith by building an ark?

If a man professes his love for his wife, but does nothing to show it, how do we rate that testimony?? His works (or lack thereof) prove that the love is not there and that his profession of love is not genuine. In any other given context, we always judge a persons testimony by their actions.

Would you attend a seminar on how to have a successful marriage if the seminar speaker had been divorced 4 times? Would you attend a seminar on how to achieve fanancial stability being held by a person who has filed bankruptcy twice and is currently under investigation for tax evasion???

Would not not their works demonstrate that they are not qualified to offer advice or counsel to other people who attend those seminars? Works always demonstrate faith.

There have been people who had gotten on drugs and lived a rough lifestyle... are you saying they're not qualified (after they've cleaned themselves up) to offer advice and tell people that the road they took should not be the same one others take?

If a person is testifying of Christ, but cheats on their taxes, beats children and gets drunk 5 nights a week, would you think they have anything to offer in the way of Christian advice or teaching? Their works don't' fit their testimony and demonstrate that their profession of faith (salvation) is not geniuine.

There have been people who had gotten on drugs and lived a rough lifestyle... are you saying they're not qualified (after they've cleaned themselves up) to offer advice and tell people that the road they took should not be the same one others take?

Exactly, if one is doing those things and professes to be of Christ it's the same as those "false prophets" mentioned.

"Works always demonstrate faith." Agreed. James 2 ...I will show you my faith by my works.

Because if you remember, we are not talking about being obedient to believe the gospel. Your claim is that we must do good deeds in order to be saved. You are moving goal posts by trying to redefine what you mean by "obedience." We are talking about physical works, good deads done in your own effort, under your own strength.

Tell me this, if salvation depends on you being good enough for it. If you have to earn salvation by doing enough good deeds, then at what point have you done enough? Is it possible for you to know on this side of the grave that you have done enough or have been good enough to be accepted by God, or do simply hope you have done enough?

You're thinking is that there must be a set number of deeds. That's not the case. We are just told to do. If the opportunity arrives we must take it. Jesus said in Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand,

[eis]

Baptismal regeneration is the belief that a person must be baptized in order to be saved. It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. ....

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html

You almost got me there. I thought you had written a detailed article about this.

[eis]

eis

If one is given a gift of any value, yes one will desire to show their gratitude in any way that is pleasing to the one that gave the gift.

As far as salvation and future sin that is why we pray daily and ask God's forgiveness for the sins that we have committed.

May I pose a situation that is most plausible. There are many Bedouin living in the desert areas of Africa or for that matter others in any arid regions. If and when they accept Christ as their Saviour - how are they baptized by immersion? Or is their salvation sufficient ?

The Holy Spirit is very active today. He is your conscience, your inspiration if you have turned your life over to Him and wish to please Jesus.

Because the time is drawing close for the rapture the Holy Spirit is working to seal all those who are coming or have yet

to come to Jesus, but you can see that the Holy Spirit is being drawn back because the time of the end is near - look at the weather alone.

Just because the prevalence of 'speaking in tongues' in not what it used to be does not mean that it is not happening. I believe that new christians in emerging countries are in many ways more attuned to the Holy Spirit than we are . We are too involved with goods that we have and with our jobs and do not always depend solely on Jesus.

As far as having someone come to my home and say I have a gift for you but I left it in the trunk of my car - I would wait for them to go and get it because it would otherwise not be a gift.

I am sure even Bedouins have water enough to bathe. Even the Eunuch on the desert road found enough water.

I think many of you faith only folks who are dear believers miss the point that Philip was not taken away until his assignment was complete. It wasn't at the point of belief, but AFTER baptism.

As far as the gift goes...you guys sure stick to your guns about such things. I guess if someone gave you food as a gift you have them cook, chew and swallow it for you before you would actually receive it as a gift.

Seriously, no baptism will save a person as a work. Plain & simple. If so, Scare Bear & I would get a truck, line the bed and fill it with water then go about baptizing all that we see. I don't believe you will go to heaven any more without baptism than you will without repentance or confession. Bedouin, planes crashing or falling on the steps of the baptistry have nothing to do with you or most anyone asking those silly hypothetical questions that only generate additional silly arguments. The real question is What does the message have to do with me?!

[eis]

As far as having someone come to my home and say I have a gift for you but I left it in the trunk of my car - I would wait for them to go and get it because it would otherwise not be a gift.

And if someone told you it was $500,000 in gold you'd just not go get it?

[Guest]

As far as having someone come to my home and say I have a gift for you but I left it in the trunk of my car - I would wait for them to go and get it because it would otherwise not be a gift.

And if someone told you it was $500,000 in gold you'd just not go get it?

Salvation

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30

Calls

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47