Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[eis]

I have driven a car @ 50+ miles an hour and have read.

You were reading a book while driving your car???!!!

More like a map!!!

[eis]

so then, the Holy Spirit comes upon us prior to our salvation, is that what you are saying?

No, it came on Cornelius before.

You're calling the Holy Spirit an "it"?

Sorry...my bad He.

[Rick-Parker]

Faith alone brings salvation, after that every work is in obedience to Christ's commands. Baptism is H₂O cannot save anyone. It is a proof of one's salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ.

[Smalcald]

also, since you didnt answer, I will ask again, were the 12 disciples baptized in water?

We are not told. It would fit that they did. That is no more an assumption than that there may have been a driver in the Ethopian eunuch's chariot or that there were babies in the Philipian jailer's household.

You never answered my question: Is a Catholic your brother? How about a Jehovah's Witness - they too believe in Jesus but disbelieve hell.

Anyone who confesses Christ, who believes that the nature of Christ as God is shown only in the Trinity and who believes in and has faith Jesus as their Lord and Savior is my Brother and Sister in Christ. This would of course include the Catholic Church, it would not include the JW's or Mormons and possibly some others. Although I do believe that they are close and may indeed find Truth in the end.

[Smalcald]

Faith alone brings salvation, after that every work is in obedience to Christ's commands. Baptism is H₂O cannot save anyone. It is a proof of one's salvation through faith in the finished work of Christ.

Part one of what you say is scriptural, faith alone brings salvation as it says in Mark only unbelief condemns; however that does not mean that Baptism is some sort of proof of faith, in fact it says nothing about baptism at all.

[nebula]

OK, I haven't read through the entire thread, I had just peaked in to see what was going on.

So, I was wondering if anyone talked about where baptism came from?

I think it's called a mikva.

[Scare Bear]

scare bear

Just a quick reply, I don't have the time to do the research tonight to give the details, but what I can recall from the story is that there was a famous preacher who would gather thousands, and preached a sermon to thousands just before the Chicago fire. At the end of the sermon he told the crowd to go home make a decision about recieving Christ as savior, then return next week and give your testomony. He regreted making that statement, because many were lost in the fire. so the point is what if someone is on their death bed and recieves Christ as Savior, but dies before they have a chance to be baptised?, or someone in a fox hole during war, someone who gets saved but killed in an auto accident, at work, or any number of ways, and does not have the chance to be baptised? through the past two centuries there must be countless numbers of people who recieve Christ but die before they have a chance to recieve baptism.

First of all, I don't know why anyone would wait until the next week. If they wanted to get baptized then the opportunity is always open, not just on Sundays. Secondly, said person who is on their death bead had all the time in the world, why choose now? The last minute? Thirdly, if a person truly wants to be baptized I think God will make sure the person is allowed to be baptized.

Also could you give any proof on the last sentence you made?

Let me ask you this, what if an atheist decides to believe in Jesus but at the last minute before he can confess or say the Lord's Prayer, he dies? What would happen to him?

[Scare Bear]

That is wrong for three reasons.

1. The New Covenant was cut in the blood of Jesus that was shed before the thief died.

So you're saying everything was fulfilled before Christ even rose? Then why did He even have to rise from the dead?

2. Jesus died BEFORE the thief died. So the thief died AFTER the New Covenant was cut.

The order in which Jesus died or the thief died has no bearing on this. The fact of the matter was that the thief was still under the old law when he made the statement.

3. Jesus told the thief, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise." Jesus promised the thief at that moment that in paradise he would be with Jesus. Both thieves were going to "paradise" (the holding place). But only ONE of the thieves was going to be with Jesus, which shows that salvation had been provided to the thief on the cross without the need to be baptized and the thief died under the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus that was shed.

So when exactly did this New Covenant take place? When the soldier pierced His side? When the thief was speaking with Him? When someone sneezed? I think you're grasping for straws on this one my friend.

The other problem with making baptism necessary for salvation is that everything relative to the doctrine of salvation has an Old Testament counterpart. The death of Jesus on the cross can be seen in the sacrifices and the festivals. The innocence and sinlessness of Jesus is seen in various types and shadows, as is the high priesthood of Jesus, the ressurrection, grace through faith, Justification, sanctification, glorification, eternal life, etc. All of those things were previously indicated in the Old Testament in one form or another, but there is nothing in the Old Testament that can be shown to be an Old Testament counterpart to baptism as a redemptive act. It is the lack of any Old Testament counterpart to baptism as necessary for salvation in the Old Testament that torpedoes the notion that baptism is salvific in nature.

To be sure, baptism is in the Old Testament, but it is never presented as a practice necessary for salvation.

1 Peter 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us

[eis]

Look at The Parable of the Workers in the Field, the man that came in at the last hour had the same reward as those who worked all day.

Hmmm that guy got paid because he worked...

[OneLight]

I feel that the totality of the Word indicates that baptism is necessary and that one is not saved by grace until that part of their faith is acted upon.

That completely eliminates grace. Gods grace is given freely, not after we do 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Then it would be a reward.

Your opinion about eliminating grace - I'll respectfully disagree.

What is your definition for grace then?