Sin, once repented, always forgiven?

[Guest Called]

I guess my next question would be then, what is rejection. For instance. I never told God I didn't want Him in my life. I was simply apathetic...I guess I knew He would be there when I needed Him. There was always that urging (I assumed to be from the Holy Spirit) that I needed to be obeying God and growing in Him. I was just apathetic to try. So did my lack of action say that I was rejecting Him? I would venture to say no since the Holy Spirit was always nawing at me, so to speak.

Kris I never verbally told God I didn't want Him in my life, but my actions certainly reflected that attitude. I would say yes, your actions reflected that you were rejecting Him...

The Holy Spirit naws on sinners too...

I would focus less on the past and more on right now and the future. Either OSAS is wrong or it is right..You will have to search that out for yourself, just like I did and just like Bob did....

[AllforJesustheLord]

If you sin, confess and repent to the Lord. Does that sin or the power of that sin, or the other participant/s of that sin, have power over you anymore? Are you free from the possible follow on effects of that sin, or are you covered by the Grace of God, and His safety therein? Is your sin, always forgiven once repented?

Puddin

If we repent, and have faith toward God, and His Christ we will be forgiven, for faith is automatically repentance, and continues to have faith, and more repentance. If repentance is not going to be done, faith is not manifested.

[Kabowd]

What do you want from me Tess ? Support from the Bible on your personal relationship with Christ ? How am I going to do that ?

All I keep hearing is how I'm wrong, followed by personal experiences and hypotheticals. Yes, I want support from the Bible. If it's all throughout it, then it shouldn't be too hard to find. But for some reason, those of you who oppose me seem to be hard pressed to find clear scripture to prove me wrong. 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that the Scripture should be used to teach, correct, rebuke and train in righteousness so that those in Christ can be well equipped for His purposes. Somehow I feel condemned that I am asking for Scriptural support. This is not only confusing, but troubling to me...

I am prepared to give you whatever you need. But you need to ask because I am not going to play semantics here. You ask what you want support of and I will provide.

Is it me or are you coming off rather harshly towards me? I may be young, but I am not naive ..nor am I ignorant of the truth. I would really appreicate some patience and compassion in the responses towards me. I've stated very very clearly in my previous posts what I am asking for. I'm wanting explainations for the Scriptures I've posted. Opinions and personal assumptions mean nothing to me. I want to know what God's word says about the issue. If you're prepared, then please address the questions I've brought up in previous posts (which are still unanswered).

You tell me - how can one live in sin and go to Heaven.....that's what I want to know. Show me Biblical back up for that because that's what this whole argument comes down to doesn't it ? Trying to justify sin.

I have never once claimed that I believe a person can live in habitual unrepentant sin and go to Heaven. What I have claimed is that the fruit in a person's life will reflect who they belong to (John 15), and that repentance (deeds) are the result of a forgiven heart. I've posted numerous verses showing why I believe what I believe and I've received no direct response.

What do I want from you? Well I would appreciate a response to my questions in this post, seeing as how I have responded to you and yours:

QUOTE

Ok, hypothetical situation here....I get saved around age 16 let's say. Grew up in the Church, all I ever knew was Christianity.....I love the Lord....

Then later I start to drift away from church....and then I get involved heavy into drug abuse and sins associated with drug use......if I were to die - living in unrepentant sin, would God still allow me into heaven ?

Yes. Here's why: If you've accepted Christ's sacrifice once, then ALL your sins were covered by His blood (sins past, sins present, sins future). Repentance (while a fruit of a true believer) is not equal to salvation. If it was, this would be considered a "work". We know that in Ephesians 2:8,9 that we cannot work to earn salvation. Also, how is your hypothetical situation any different than this one:

I get saved around age 16...grew up in Church, love the Lord ..but struggle with the issue of lust. On the way home from church one day I see a guy walking down the street and begin to have impure thoughts. Suddenly, I'm in a car accident and killed instantly. Would God allow me into heaven?

You see, no matter how good and obedient we all try to live..there will always be things that trip us up. We can't go one day without sin in our lives. If we have to confess each and every sin each time in order for salvation to be secure, then this is no different than the priests of the old covenant.

QUOTE God doesn't force His love on us does He ? Is that really love ? Love is a two way street....yes - God WILL keep His end and save you, BUT, if you turn your back on Him, will He FORCE you to love Him ? That's not love is it ? He wants our obedience!

I 100% agree that God wants us to live in obedience. And I agree that He never forces Himself upon us. However, I do not believe love is a two-way street. Scripture says that we were DEAD in sin (before salvation). What can a dead man do? Can a dead man love? Can a dead man do anything? No. We love Him BECAUSE He first loved us. (I John 4:19). Let's also not forget that God's love is unconditional. He doesn't save us, then change His mind because we disobey. He knew in advance, each and every time we would sin. He didn't send His Son to the cross without all the facts. Nothing you or I have ever done has taken Him by surprise. While God commands obedience, I do not believe it is a condition by which we earn or maintain our salvation.

QUOTE So, if love is a two way street and I CHOSE to turn on God and live a life of sin, is God going to save me whilst in sin ?

Again, I respectfully disagree on the two-way street thing. Another example I would have for this is the covenant God made with Abram (found in Gen. 15). When God made the covenant with Abram, how did Abram participate? What did he have to "do"? Notice that he did NOTHING. God caused him to fall into a deep sleep, and God Himself fulfilled the covenant between the two of them.

QUOTE

is God going to save me whilst in sin ?

Isn't that the essence of Romans 5:8?

"But God demonstrated His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

QUOTE Can I just throw a OSAS blanket statement and say "well, I'm saved so they're forgiven ? Kinda cheapens grace doesn't it ?

Not at all. In fact, I believe the contrary to your statement would be true: if grace is conditional upon how I perform, this would cheapen it. Personally, I think it increases it's value. Where sin abounds, grace increases all the more (Romans 5:20).

Here are a couple of more Scriptures that support my belief:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance th race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning it's shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:1-2

In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership with the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

Philippians 1:4-6

From these verses I learn a couple of things:

#1 Jesus is the Author and perfecter. What He starts, He finishes. Salvation is initiated by God and He continues to do a work in us from the point of salvation until the day Christ returns.

#2 The Christian journey is likened to a race...yet it is clear that there are hinderances and "sin that easily entangles us". It does not state that we go back to the beginning each time we sin. We would never make it to the finish that way because we constantly sin. Instead it tells us to persevere, and cast off those things that hinder us. We don't go back to the starting point...we are just "freed up" to carry on in the race as Christ "perfects" us.

I asked a question earlier that really wasn't answered:

* If God says He forgives..and even forgets our sin...casts it as far as the East is from the West (Ps. 103:12; Heb.9:17-18), how is it not calling Him a liar to then say He will hold them against us?

And in light of the other two Scriptures I just gave I have a couple more questions:

* If God initiates salvation, and performs it on our behalf....what makes us think we can then take it into our own hands?

* In light of the verse in Philippians 1, does God finish what He starts or not?

* In light of the verses in Hebrews 12, what does "Author" and "Perfecter" mean?

Also, not one person has yet to explain Super Jew's clarification of John 10:28 and Matthew 7:23.

[Guest LCPGUY]

I say the opposite is true. I say a belief in which you can lose your salvation denies the nature of God and destroys the purpose behind Christianity.

How so?

Refrence my first post. It denies the soveriegnty of God and the power of His grace. I'm still waiting for someone to at least respond to my first post.

OK - I agree with your first post!

[Kabowd]

I hesitate to add this because my other questions haven't been answered yet, but oh well.

On the issue of repentance : I believe in repentance, certainly. But as I've read through Scripture, I see that repentance (in the New Testament) often refers to an initial salvation experience (see Mattew 3:2, 11; Mark 1:4; Luke 13:3; Acts 2:38; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 2 Peter 3:9; 2 Timothy 2:22-26). We see John the Baptist warning ppl and preaching repentance along with baptism prior to Christ's sacrifice. Notice how baptism went hand in hand with repentance. But are they instructed to continue being baptized? I'm not saying that we should not repent of sin. I'm saying that when we turn to Christ in salvation, this is repentance of sin. So in that respect, if you do not repent...you are correct, you are indeed lost.

That's not to say that we become saved and continue living in our pre-repentant state.(Romans 6:1-7) For, that would not be true repentance. True repentance means to "turn from sin", literally to turn your back to it and go in the opposite direction. This doesn't mean that we won't "stumble", however. Stumbling is different than being unrepentant. The fact is..we WILL stumble. Should we confess our sin and repent? Yes! But not because our salvation is dependant upon it...we repent because it is the act of a heart that has been truly changed. It is because we understand fully where we would be were it not for Christ, because we are filled with gratitude for his sacrifice and because His love for us compels us to live a holy life (2 Cor. 5:14). It is not based on fear that our salvation will be lost if we don't repent.

One last question to add to my other unanswered ones...lol:

What is everyone's perspective on what "ransom" means?

[Khristeeanos]

I really don't want to be involved in this discussion anymore. At least not in this thread.

Most of the problem with discussing this issue is that the posts go so fast, there isn't enough time to make a rebuttal to every post.

People make a point, then move on. The other people make a point and move on.

Nothing is really dealt with here and the misunderstandings cause conflict.

As for John 10:28, read verse 27 that says a hearing and following of Jesus is required to be under the promise of verse 28.

And for Matthew 7, read Matthew 25:1-13 where Jesus said that some will also hear, "I don't know you." which is the opposite of "I never knew you."

++++

Cafeteria Christianity is closed. We have to accept all of what Christ and the Bible says, or none of it.

You can't pick and choose here, people.

[Kabowd]

Cafeteria Christianity is closed.  We have to accept all of what Christ and the Bible says, or none of it.

You can't pick and choose here, people.

Who was saying otherwise?

As for John 10:28, read verse 27 that says a hearing and following of Jesus is required to be under the promise of verse 28.

And for Matthew 7, read Matthew 25:1-13 where Jesus said that some will also hear, "I don't know you." which is the opposite of "I never knew you."

This in no way contradicts the explanation Super Jew gave of those verses. When the Bible uses the word "knew" or "know" it is not in the sense of awareness. It is used to describe intimate knowledge..in fact, often it is used to specify sexual intimacy between a husband and wife. (ex: Abraham knew Sarah). If we look at our relationship with Christ, obviously He is "aware" of us all, but clearly He does not have INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP (in the spiritual sense) with all of us. Thus, this makes the verse in Matthew 7:23 even more clear (and seems to suggest OSAS all the more:

"Then I will tell them plainly, "I never ("oudepote", i.e. NEVER AT ANY TIME), knew (experienced intimate relationship with) you....."

He said in John 10:27 "MY" sheep hear My voice and I "know" them and they follow Me. Clearly, the one's that He "knows" are His. This only confirms even more the significance of verse 28.

Edited August 10, 2004 by Tess

[Khristeeanos]

Sorry, the tone of this thread is too negative.

Maybe in the next one.

[Kabowd]

I really don't want to be involved in this discussion anymore. At least not in this thread.

Most of the problem with discussing this issue is that the posts go so fast, there isn't enough time to make a rebuttal to every post.

People make a point, then move on. The other people make a point and move on.

Nothing is really dealt with here and the misunderstandings cause conflict.

If it helps you at all, your last posts were on page 5. If you'd like to respond to me or Super Jew you're free to make a new topic or whatever. I disagree that the conflict is due to the posts going so fast. I think conflict occurs when someone tells another person their belief is wrong, but fails to show them clearly how. Whenever someone has presentd a Scripture, it has been out of context or misinterpretted. Then, instead of responding to the verse, they move on and jump to something else...or decide they don't want to participate in the discussion anymore.

I may only be 15, but I've had this discussion MANY times with MANY believers. I always approach it with an open mind and heart and the same thing always happens. The ppl trying to prove me wrong get exasperated and never clearly explain the Word. It's easy to throw out a verse here and there out of context and without using the orginal text and create your own theology around it. It's hard to look deeper and search for understanding. To this day, I have yet to have someone refute John 10:28, or Matthew 7:23 (not to mention all the others I have posted). All my questions are avoided. I'm even practically chastised for requesting to have scriptural proof. This is an important issue for me. I am a physical orphan, so I take it very seriously when someone threatens my spiritual adoption; telling me it is conditional and not fully secure.

[Khristeeanos]

If it helps you at all, your last posts were on page 5.

When you say "page 5" you do realize that in your "My Controls" panel, you can change how many posts are on 1 page, right?

I have changed mine so even the last post was on page 5. But thanks for the help!

I will be around for a while, maybe this topic will come up again and I will post then.

You are aware that this debate didn't start until 500 years ago when John Calvin introduced his Perseverance of the Saints doctrine into the already established truth of a conditional security, right?

Check out church history, you will see clearly.