PGA Posted September 10, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2012 Hi Danielzk, I'm not going to catch up at this rate but I'm going to answer your two posts anyway, whether or not you wish to continue. How much do you know of the Preterist position? You see, I have been where you are. I have considered the futurist positions. What have you read on the subject from the Preterist position? Which authors have you read? The question is what does Scripture really say and how much of what you/I believe is tradition and how much of is Scriptural? The similarities between Daniel 9 and Matthew 24 are many. -Me Yes because they are exactly the very same thing , there is only one "abomination that makes desolate" that is referred to in this matter Notice that Jesus is speaking directly about the the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of by Prophet Daniel Matthew 24 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 1For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. Danielzk You did not include the whole context. Yes, He is speaking of the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15, but He also refers to other desolation. There are two 'desolations' spoken of - the abomination of desolation in which the ruler enters the temple and the desolation of the city and temple. Daniel 9:26-27 New International Version 1984 (NIV1984) 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven'[he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. The point I was making is that even the armies surrounding the city and coming into the temple area was considered a desolation of the sacred to the Jews. Besides the abomination of desolation Jesus makes mention of God's house being desolate. His 'house' can be a reference to the city or the temple, or both. Matthew 23:37-38 New International Version 1984 (NIV1984) 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. Jesus also makes mention of Jerusalem being made desolate, just as Daniel did, and by armies that surround the city. Luke 21:20 New International Version 1984 (NIV1984) 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Both happen in the last days. The question is when were/are they? So your argument does not work. As Daniel said, 'desolations' - plural, as well as the abomination of desolation - singular. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 10, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 10, 2012 1 Corinthians 10:11 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel. 11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. and it simply does not even speak of the end times , least alone that it had already come -Danielzk Not in your way of looking at Scripture, but it is concerned with the Old Covenant. Their forefathers were baptize into Moses, we into Christ. They tested the Lord and they perished. The warning is for these brothers also, on whom the fulfillment of the ages had come. The nation was about to get its final judgment. These NT believers were also under temptation not only from the Jews to turn back to Judaism, but from idolatry and soon to come also from the Romans. Paul is warning them not to be idolators for they were baptized with Christ into the New Covenant. I say this to show you how you are going off track to what the scriptures are teaching ./ hoping that you'd see that you need to rethink what you think is correct what you are trying to do is like a Muslim trying to apply end time bible scripture to the Koran ,, it does not fit , it won't won't work -Danielzk I've never been compared to a Muslim before. I am looking at Scripture and comparing Scripture with Scripture because I believe that Scripture interprets itself. You take a passage like Matthew 24 where Jesus is specifically speaking to His disciples and you apply it to your own times, but what is God actually saying in the Scripture. Jesus said to His disciples after they asked Him a three pronged question: 'Watch out that no one deceives YOU.' It carries on and on as Jesus answers His disciples questions and He keeps using the second person singular - you, you, you. And He says to them that all this will come upon this generation. You turn 'you' into us, twenty centuries removed, and you turn 'this' generation into 'that' generation all in the name of interpreting the Scriptures 'literally'. I don't buy it. You have to understand the context and the figures of speech as they understood them. How are the terms like 'coming in the clouds' or 'heaven and earth' used in the OT, because these people who He was talking to were steeped into the Old Covenant. the preterist view proclaims that the end times prophecies have already happened back in 70AD,, but no they have not happened yet , learn about what specific prophecies have come true in this generation ,, , -Danielzk What prophecies have come true in this generation??? this is why I really don't want to go much further as you won't even acknowledge what is correct proven by scripture , -Danielzk That is fine. It is not like I'm forcing you. I debate because I'm interested in eschatology and I like to think my position through. When someone challenges what I believe I like to test it with Scripture and try to reason it out. I'm not new to this. I've been testing Scripture since the early 1980's when I made a profession of faith. I've been misled before and I'm sure I will be again, but during that time I have also seen God confirm His word in areas I struggled with, such as whether a believer could lose their faith or the creation/evolution issue. I only try to help you with pieces of the puzzle as I have no intention of walking you through it all ,,preterist view is inaccurate on many levels and scripture does indeed prove it , just because I don't want to spend months pointing it out in all the ways that it is inaccurate does not mean that the scripture does not prove it false the best way to get an understanding is to do a few month long study of prophecies , Ezekiel prophesied that Israel would be reborn as a nation May 14 1948 ,,it has exactly that day , further the 6 day war , and many other prophecies that have come true exactly as foretold in this modern generation ,, -Danielzk Which ones are they? I find it amazing how people interpret language that speaks of swords and horses and make it fit our times, all in the name of a literal interpretation. The same thing happens in Matthew 24 where the people are told to flee, not even going back for their cloaks. They pick and choose what is to be taken literally and what is not to be taken literally. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 11, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 11, 2012 Hi Roy, Did I answer your post on the fifth kingdom that you speak of in Daniel 2? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 13, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 13, 2012 Hi Danielzk, If you are going to apply prophecy always so literally, then who does Jesus address when He says 'you' in Matthew 24? Are we going to be in a period of time where the sword is in uses again? Just as when Jesus says "when you see the abomination that makes desolate spoken by Daniel the Prophet " do not go back to get your coat or possessions ,,,simply because the antichrist has declared to kill Jews ,, so Jesus is telling the future time Jews in Judea that they need to run to the hills for safety ,, immediately after hearing about the abomination the antichrist commits by desecrating the throne ,,run for their lives because there will not be time enough to go back to the house to gather belongings ,, if someone tries that , they will be killed before they get away ,, -Danielzk Luke 21:20-24 New International Version (NIV) 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. If you are going to take everything literally then when Jesus said over and over again in the NT 'this generation' applying to those He was bodily among, then why are you changing it to 'that' generation in Matthew 24? When He says the same things in Matthew 24 as He does in Matthew 10 and it applies to the disciples, then why in Matthew 24 are you trying to make it apply to a future generation. You see my friend, it confuses the whole of Scripture and makes it say other than what it actually says. Matthew 10:5-7 New International Version (NIV) 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Matthew 10:11-23 New International Version (NIV) 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Now make a comparison between Matthew 10 and Matthew 24 and tell me that Jesus is speaking primarily to another generation of people. You have to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel to ignore these similarities. There are many more passages that we could do this exercise with concerning Matthew 24, all speaking of the 1st century. What does this tell you Danielzk? I'm out of time, but I hope to continue with your post later this week. I'll cover some of the specific Scriptural references you provide in Revelation. Peter Matthew 24:3-35 New International Version (NIV) 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b] 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 13, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 13, 2012 Hi Danielzk, If you are going to apply prophecy always so literally, then who does Jesus address when He says 'you' in Matthew 24? Are we going to be in a period of time where the sword is in uses again? Just as when Jesus says "when you see the abomination that makes desolate spoken by Daniel the Prophet " do not go back to get your coat or possessions ,,,simply because the antichrist has declared to kill Jews ,, so Jesus is telling the future time Jews in Judea that they need to run to the hills for safety ,, immediately after hearing about the abomination the antichrist commits by desecrating the throne ,,run for their lives because there will not be time enough to go back to the house to gather belongings ,, if someone tries that , they will be killed before they get away ,, -Danielzk Luke 21:20-24 New International Version (NIV) 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. If you are going to take everything literally then when Jesus said over and over again in the NT 'this generation' applying to those He was bodily among, then why are you changing it to 'that' generation in Matthew 24? When He says the same things in Matthew 24 as He does in Matthew 10 and it applies to the disciples, then why in Matthew 24 are you trying to make it apply to a future generation. You see my friend, it confuses the whole of Scripture and makes it say other than what it actually says. Matthew 10:5-7 New International Version (NIV) 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Matthew 10:11-23 New International Version (NIV) 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Now make a comparison between Matthew 10 and Matthew 24 and tell me that Jesus is speaking primarily to another generation of people. You have to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel to ignore these similarities. There are many more passages that we could do this exercise with concerning Matthew 24, all speaking of the 1st century. What does this tell you Danielzk? I'm out of time, but I hope to continue with your post later this week. I'll cover some of the specific Scriptural references you provide in Revelation. Peter Matthew 24:3-35 New International Version (NIV) 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b] 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. PGA First of all, What will be, or can be the weapons of war be say 7 years or 15 years from now? Are you positive that they will be the weapons we use now? Who saw and who wrote down the Prophecy as given by God? There was no Second Coming of the King of King's and the Lord of Lord's in 70 AD, or anytime. Nothing changed, Rome still ruled and continued to do so until about 350 AD. They were not defeated by another kingdom. All do not believe in Christ, so all do not follow HIm. It seams odd that you advocate a Second Coming when nothing has changed. You hang on to the past, which has not come to pass. A key is to look at the fig tree. When it begins to bud we know that summer is near. The same with the signs, when they begin to unfold we know that the end is near. It is this generation who sees these things happening that will see the end. Matt 24::7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (again Rome was still in control until about 350 AD) so this never happened at the time of 70 AD. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. Matt 24 - Immediately after the distress of those days; The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give off its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.v 30 - At that time, the sing of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (the Second Coming) and all the nations of the earth will mourn.. They will seen the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Compare to Zech 14:6 - On that day, there will be no light, no cold or frost, It will be a unique day without daytime or nighttime, a day known to the Lord, when evening comes there will be light. v. 9 - On that day, there will be one Lord and His name the only name. But in 70 AD Ceasar was Lord and Master. v 20 - On that day, "Holy to the Lord" will be inscribed on the bells of the horses. There has been no Record of the Second Coming in or around 70 AD or any other time. If so, "This Generation" is a future generation. When you see these things happening, Nation against Nation and Kingdom against KIngdom. The bud is out, the birth pains are beginning. This is just now beginning in our generation. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 14, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 14, 2012 Hi Montana, Danielzk, Thanks for the latest and your interest. I will try and respond over the next couple of days except to for this. First of all, What will be, or can be the weapons of war be say 7 years or 15 years from now? Are you positive that they will be the weapons we use now? Who saw and who wrote down the Prophecy as given by God? - Montana Those inspired by the Spirit. Was Jesus speaking to the disciples in Matthew 24/Luke 21 as His primary address? Did He not tell THEM what would happen in their generation if you read the discourse without reading something into it that God (through the inspired writers) did not say? The themes of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are expanded upon in many other parts of the gospel. Do you believe the Bible is its own interpreter? Matthew 23 develops the theme of the woes to the Pharisees and teachers of the Law in that very generation. Luke 19: 39-44 also addresses these Pharisees and it also encompasses part of the Luke 21:20 prophecy. Luke 19:39-44 New International Version (NIV) 39 Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!” 40 “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.” 41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.” Luke 21:20 New International Version (NIV) 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. The same is true of Matthew 26:59-66. Matthew 26:59-66 New International Version (NIV) 59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’” 62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” 64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[a] 65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?” “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Again we have Jesus pronouncing judgment on these people, during their lifetime, if you take the words plainly??? When God came in judgment in the OT the cloud imagery was present, and He did not come physically in the OT but brought other nations in judgment on a people such as Egypt or in the case of Judea, the Babylonians. When I have more time I can document this from the OT. The point is over and over again in the NT we see a soon coming judgment on those who will reject Him and the new covenant in His blood, a covenat that would soon replace the old. Hebrews 8:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Peter Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 15, 2012 Hi Peter, Well it seems that you will not even acknowledge provable Facts that bible prophecy is happening in our time and you refuse to acknowledge the Factual evidences as such . I would like you to come into the real time of now,,as in today and realize that it is a literal impossibility to prove Jesus has already come for if he had , he'd still be here and we would not have all the problems in this world that we have Even if we use Nostradamus predictions where he said that there would be 3 antichrists in power , Nero,..Napoleon,, and the last Mabus ,, the last has not happened and there is no way to know if the name Mabus is accurate using an analogy of what you are saying goes something like this: a friend you have had all your life tells people that you have died and passed on , people ask your friend for physical proof that you are dead , but your friend does not respond to the requests , and insists you are dead ,, this goes on for awhile then while this friend is telling a group of people that you are dead ......you walk into the room alive and well ,,the fact that you walk in the room is evidence that you are alive ,, and since you are alive ,, you cannot be dead at the same time Just as you have repetitively refused to accept and acknowledge the truth of what is happening in the world in recent modern times that prove that the preterist view is not valid , until you can come into the here and now of what is in fact happening in the world now it will not be possible for you to see that the preterist view is not possible This is why I have stated previously that it is of no value to continue this matter , you have repeatedly shown that you will not come into the here & now life reality and accept the physical , tangible proof that end times bible prophecy is being fulfilled now in this day , Israel being reborn as a nation exactly as the bible aid it would and the numerous , numerous other proofs of other bible prophecies are happening in these Last days ...I will pray that you can find your way in seeing the truths of what is really happening so that you are truly ready for Christs return Hi Danielzk, If I thought it was impossible to prove I would not be wasting my time sorting it out, discussing it or trying to prove it to you, but I believe it is what Scripture teaches. I had been in the pre-trib, dispensational camp for almost twenty years as well as testing other futurist views. I've heard many of the arguments from that side of town and I don't find them convincing because I find too many contradictions there that people have not been able to clear up. I find the Preterist/partial Preterist view, from what I understand of it, answers most of my questions and in a biblical fashion, Scripture interpreting Scripture. I'm still curious to know where you feel that Scripture teaches old covenant Israel back as a nation again? When Jesus said that He would come in the Father's glory I believe we have good reason to believe that was not a physical coming as when He appeared to them three days after His crucifixion physically, and also good reason to believe that this was during their generation - extremely good reason. What I'm noticing on these posts is that when I answer criticism on a different position than mine and then offer proof of the Preterist/partial Preterist position from the texts I seldom get a response to my argument that addresses the texts themselves or my argument. For instance, I mentioned that Jesus specifically addresses the disciples in Matthew 24 in the second person singular and is concerned with their generation. How do you get, in a literal interpretation, 'you' as He speaks to the disciples as meaning us or a future generation 2000 plus years removed? If you read this to a child and asked him/her who Jesus was talking to I feel that they would recognize that it is the disciples. I think reading us into Scriptures is done because preachers and teachers interpret these signs into the media and headlines as applying to their times and then building a case from this presuppostional starting point. I mention some of the many Scriptures that are a common theme of judgment on Israel of old for breaking the covenant; that God was bringing the curses promised for disobedience and also vengeance on these people for all the righteous blood shed on the earth upon this nation (Deut. 28-32). I provided historical evidence that supports some of the points I have been making. I've also provided Scripture that is convincing that we are in the new covenant age, not the old (Matt. 5:17-18) and therefore we are part of Christ's kingdom on earth, spiritually speaking, as the saints in heaven are also part of His kingdom; that Christ received that kingdom in A.D. 70 when the old and new no longer existed side by side. As for the rest, I haven't made my points yet. Yes, I see many similarities between what Jesus said would come to past back then and what is happening today because of mans sinful nature outside of Christ. The World Will Embrace A Single Religion… Rev 13:8 -Danielzk The beast in Revelation 13 I believe to be the Roman Empire as Daniel identified four beasts in the visions, with the fourth being at the time that God would bring in His eternal kingdom in Christ. It held Jerusalem captive for 42 months with the siege of Jerusalem. God gave this beast power to conquer them. Roman also had control over the known world of their time, that is why it was considered a world empire in Daniel's interpretations of Neb's visions and his own. Rome had authority over these nations of their day. Every nation that was controlled by Rome was required to worship its king, its emperor -Caesar as Lord (a god) rather than Jesus/God. A lot more can be said of this with Scriptural backing, which takes time I'm not willing to invest at the moment. The Ancient Roman Empire Will Re-Emerge As A Political Force… Rev 17:9-10 -Danielzk The great prostitute was Jerusalem, Babylon the Great, that great city, the harlot (eg., Isaiah 1:21 of many examples) drunk with the blood of the saints - not Rome or the revived or ancient Roman Empire. Which other city or nation is guilty of slaying their blood, Danielzk?(Matthew 23:29,-30, 34-38 as one of many examples) She compromised herself with many kings of the earth and people from all over the earth came to her. She was in Acts 2:5 identified as having Jews from every nation under heaven. Her population swelled every Passover and at other times when Jews from other nations came to worship God their. She was a thorn in Rome's side and she had great influence in the Roman Empire because of her people, the Jews, that had been scattered around the Roman Empire, she was the most important city in the world to them, and this being before the great dispersion of A.D. 70. BTW, the 'many waters' where the prostitute sits on is defined in Rev. 17:15. Again the beast the woman rides is Rome. She carries the woman and allows the woman certain freedoms and authorities in that they are allowed to worship God and the high priest and Sanhedrin exerts authority over Jews in every nation, so Rome allowed her liberties. The reason the woman sits on seven hills, as explained before, is because she is carried by the beast which is Rome. Rome is situated on seven hills and upon the authority of Rome she rides. Verse 10 is another verse that identifies when these words were written. The seven kings are seven Caesars, five of whom have fallen (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius), one who is (Nero -reigned from 54-68 so the Book was written sometime during his reign in which he started persecuting the Christians in A.D. 64), and then Vespasian who has not yet come to power. Babylon Will Re-Emerge As A Prominent City In World Affairs… Rev 18:2-3 -Danielzk The 'great city' is identified as the city where the Lord was slain, which can be no other than Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8) That is the city mentioned in Revelation 17:18 and also 18:10, 16, 19, 21, is this same city in which is found the blood of the saints and prophets (Rev. 18:24). Revelation 11:8 New International Version (NIV) 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. I'm out of time. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 15, 2012 Hi Montana, There was no Second Coming of the King of King's and the Lord of Lord's in 70 AD, or anytime. Nothing changed, Rome still ruled and continued to do so until about 350 AD. They were not defeated by another kingdom. All do not believe in Christ, so all do not follow HIm. It seams odd that you advocate a Second Coming when nothing has changed. -Montana The question then becomes are Christians part of His kingdom? Does He reign over us? Is He our King? Does He have a present kingdom? If He is our king then where is His kingdom? Yes He reigns on earth, just as He reigns in heaven, but on earth we worship in spirit and in truth. Paul said our citizenship is in heaven (Phil. 3:20) for Christians are the Israel of promise (Gal. 4:21-31, esp. vs. 26), the new Jerusalem (vs. 26), new creations in Christ Jesus - the old has gone. Jesus has been raised from the dead and now reigns in heaven (Eph. 1:20-23 is past tense) You hang on to the past, which has not come to pass. -Montana I'm not holding on to the past. Jesus is Lord! A key is to look at the fig tree. When it begins to bud we know that summer is near. The same with the signs, when they begin to unfold we know that the end is near. It is this generation who sees these things happening that will see the end. -Montana Yes, it is a simple illustration. Trees lose their leaves during winter, when they start to bud we know summer is near, so when the disciples saw the signs Jesus spoke of they also would know that His coming in His kingdom was near. In fact He said to them that they would not have gone through all the cities of Israel before He came Matthew 10:23). He said some living when He came in the glory of His kingdom would still be alive (Matthew 16:27-28). What does this tell you Montana? Over and over Jesus quotes from the OT and provides warning to that generation. Every time the words 'this generation' is used it speaks of those of the generation of the 1st century that Jesus came to. Why do you want to change it in Matthew 24:34? The disciples asked Him when all this would happen, and what would be the sign of His coming - well here He is telling them. He says to them in the verse following the parable of the fig tree, Matthew 24:33 New International Version (NIV) 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Jesus has just given THEM all these signs, all these things, and they will know just as they know when a fig tree starts to bud that summer is near so is His coming when these things come to bear. Matt 24::7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (again Rome was still in control until about 350 AD) so this never happened at the time of 70 AD. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. -Montana Yes, this has all been documented as happening in the 1st century. Josephus wrote about the Jewish Wars. Rome (the Empire) was comprised of people from many nations that had been conquered and bought into her fold. Earthquakes are documented, as is the gospel being preached to all people under heaven, and this in the Bible in various Scriptures. These disciples/apostles were persecuted. This is documented over and over again in Acts. I just read it again the other day and noted many Scriptures that attest to this as other epistles/letters do also. It all happened in the 1st century. Matt 24 - Immediately after the distress of those days; The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give off its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.v 30 - At that time, the sing of the Son of Man will appear in the sky (the Second Coming) and all the nations of the earth will mourn.. They will seen the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Compare to Zech 14:6 - On that day, there will be no light, no cold or frost, It will be a unique day without daytime or nighttime, a day known to the Lord, when evening comes there will be light. v. 9 - On that day, there will be one Lord and His name the only name. -Montana Immediately is not 20 plus centuries removed. What are 'those days' spoken of? Is the sun, moon and stars used in the OT in a figurative, typological way? (eg., Genesis 37:9) If so then how do you know that this is not the intention of Jesus in using these words for surely these people steeped in the OT would understand its means, not like us today. What day is 'that day'? The heavenly bodies being shaken is also figurative language for what can be shaken was - that was the old covenant and what remains is the new (Hebrews 12:17-29). But in 70 AD Ceasar was Lord and Master. v 20 - On that day, "Holy to the Lord" will be inscribed on the bells of the horses. There has been no Record of the Second Coming in or around 70 AD or any other time. If so, "This Generation" is a future generation. When you see these things happening, Nation against Nation and Kingdom against KIngdom. The bud is out, the birth pains are beginning. This is just now beginning in our generation. -Montana You are looking for His coming to be physical and earthly so how are you going to see it being anything else? Jesus came on the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13-14 to receive His kingdom - the power and great glory - and it was a heavenly scene where He came before the Father and He was worthy to open the scroll/seals, something Daniel said to seal up until the end times (the end times of his people). It was OT Israel that had been decreed 70 weeks of years (490 years) once the decree was issued. People from every tribe and tongue saw His coming in power and great glory in heaven and those who were on earth during the destruction of the temple and city understood or saw through this understanding of this desolation that Jesus had in fact received His kingdom and was reigning with the Father in the Father's glory. They understood because what He said had come true and come to pass. The OT people, their city and rituals and temple worship, their whole world had come to an end in the end of that age, just as Jesus told His disciples it would be. Not one stone would be left unturned, not every letter of the law was now possible to fulfill. How could they now bring their sacrifices to the priests at the temple to make atonement for their sins? They could not because there was no more temple and Jesus had entered the better temple, the heavenly temple now to appear for all time to those who would inherit salvation. It is finished. The sacrifice is made, the Lord our Righteousness reigns! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 15, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 15, 2012 Peter His First Coming was Physical. His Second Coming will be Physical. It all hangs on Acts 1;9-11 - After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galille", they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky", "This same Jesus who has been taken from you into heaven will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven". Jesus went up, and Jesus will return in the same way He went up into heaven. Zech 14:4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mt of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mt of Olives will split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving north and half moving south. ... v5b - Then the Lord my God will come and all the holy ones with him. Yes it is Scriptural. His Second Coming will be a Physical Second Coming; His feet will touch the Mt of Olives. Ezk 43:7 - Son of Man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelies forever. The house of Israel will never again defile my holy name. Peter, has this happened. Is the house Israel true to the Lord. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 17, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2012 I am unfamiliar with an end of the church age? -Me (Posted 08 September 2012 - 03:32 AM) End of the Age , end of the church age is what Jesus said in reference to his return to earth to set up his kingdom on earth We are now in the church Age , Jesus will be ruler of the earth when he sets up His Kingdom -Danielzk Did you notice what you did? You read the church age in Matthew 24:3 as what Jesus said and as the current age which was to end. That is not what Jesus said and it does not fit into the context. Jesus came to OT Israel who were steeped in the Old Covenant law and tradition. Jesus is speaking to His disciples who questioning Him about the temple in which not one stone would be left on another and they ask Him when this will happen, what will be the sign of His coming (in judgment per Matthew 23:33-38 for in the context He had just pronounced all these woes on the Pharisees and teachers of the Law) and the end of the age? It has been shown to you that the Church Age Began in the New Testament when Jesus established that the 1st Christian church would begin with Peter , we are currently in the Church Age and when Jesus returns to earth to establish His Kingdom on earth then there will be no more Church Age , that is what is refereed to in scripture as the end of the Age -Danielzk Yes, it began with the New Covenant. I would argue that the church age began after Jesus had established the New Covenant and that could only happen at the death of the one making the will and sacrifice, so the age He was talking about in Matthew 16 is a different age from that which they were then living in in Matthew 24. The church age is without end, the age of the fifth kingdom (Daniel 2:44), the everlasting kingdom which the gates of hell will not prevail against. That kingdom was fully/firmly established when the old Jerusalem, the old temple, the old covenant, Israel of old and the old priesthood were no more. Hebrews 9:15-22 New International Version (NIV) 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. 16 In the case of a will,[a] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Footnotes:Hebrews 9:16 Same Greek word as covenant; also in verse 17 Hebrews 10:8-10 New International Version (NIV) 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. The two covenants existed side-by-side for one generation - 40 years - as God had said they would (Hebrews 8:13). The gospel had to go into all the world before the end of the old covenant age would come, the end of the age Jesus was alluding to in Matthew 24:3 - judgment for the disobedient scoffers and salvation for those who were waiting for Him. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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