Catholicism

[Guest charlie]

Makes sense to me. Better watch it or you'll have more people (than myself) giving Catholicism a true down to earth look-see.

[GoodSamaritan]

But it looks like a bunch of circular reasoning to me.

Well, you told me it's circular reasoning but didn't tell me why! I don't see it--wanna help me out, please?

GS

p.s. I tell my wife I'm very smart all the time and she just laughs...

[dwinkjr]

Makes sense to me. Better watch it or you'll have more people (than myself) giving Catholicism a true down to earth look-see.

Actually that is exactly what you should be doing. Question everything, look at the facts. I Personally can see support for and against alot of the doctrines of all denoms. But i can also see where we all agree where it counts. So let us unite in Christ.

God Bless,

Dave

[stevehut]

Well, you told me it's circular reasoning but didn't tell me why! I don't see it--wanna help me out, please?

Gladly.

Circular reasoning means that a person begins with a conclusion that is assumed to be corect, and then works backwards to "prove" it.

This appears to be the case with much of Catholic doctrine, IM (very) HO.

[Botz]

Hi GS. I'll try to be more specific and answer your questions fully.

You didn't refute my argument that Moses actually, physically DIED in Deuteronomy 34, yet was seen ALIVE with Jesus and Elijah at the Transfiguration. What does this prove? First, that those who have died in God's friendship arenot asleep, but very much ALIVE. Second, it proves that they do appear and intercede on earth with human witness.

I am not 100% clear on the state of those that have died in Christ...it seems that some are now in Heaven...such as Moses,and Elijah and the other Old Covenant Saints who were set free from Sheol when Jesus died and rose again...others are asleep in Christ and await the Ressurection...but all are alive to Christ whether they live or die...because nothing can separate us from the love of G-d...not even death...but there also remains a bodily ressurection.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When Moses appeared to the L-rd along with Elijah...I do not recall them speaking to Peter,James and John...but to the L-rd...and it might well be that they continually pray in the presence of the Father in the courts of Heaven...but we are never in anyway encouraged through Scripture to approach G-d through them or anyone other than Jesus.That and the appearance of Samuel were exceptional events that G-d allowed to take place...but they are far removed from being proof positive that we should petition them...rather they were sent by G-d to convey His will.

If praying to dead people or communicating to dead people who were now in the spiritual dimension were ever allowed or encouraged then it would be self-evident throughout the Scriptures...the Psalms would contain poetic references..Kings and prophets and priests would all have practised it and we would not be arguing about it now. Also it is a fact that Samuel was dead...he had physically died...but he was in a spiritual realm.1Samuel 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

What Saul did in approaching a medium was expressly forbidden...but G-d used this situation uniquely to pronounce judgement upon Saul...to try and rationalize this event as evidence that we can communicate to those who have died is completely wrong...in fact it is so obvious that we should never try and communicate with those who have died...wherever they are and whatever they may be doing....it is not our place or purpose to do so.

You also assert that this practice of praying to, and petitioning people who have left this earth, was never part of the NT Church.

By this I mean as evidenced in Scripture...and not historical accounts that do not line up with Scripture....I am sure there are many practices demonstrated in the formative years of the Church over the first 300 years that are recorded...even by clever and righteous individuals...but that doesn't mean they didn't accumulate some strange doctrines from time to time.

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

I am sure this may well be true...and I have no trouble believing the spirits of the dead Saints in Heaven and the Angels join in...but we are not to address them...but Christ who alone is our High Priest.

I quoted...Romans 8:34-39 talks of separation from the LOVE of Christ and not the BODY of Christ....

to which you replied...

Think logically here. What do we call a Father who fathers several different families? The Body of Christ is ONE, not many. Where does Scripture EVER stipulate that those on earth are part of a different 'Body' than those who have passed on?

Romans 8 is addressing, in v 33, 'the ELECT of God'. Therefore, the love of Christ is synonymous with the Body of Christ or, as in v 33, also called 'the ELECT of God'.

My point here was the subtle change you used when you quoted from Romans..

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?...by changing the word 'love' for 'body'...which is what you did...it seems as though you are trying to fit a doctrine into Scripture and make a connection with our on going relationship to those who have died and appear before the presence of G-d and therefore add some weight to the doctrine of communicating to dead Saints.

QUOTE 

The great question really is why would anyone want to go through Mary or any dead and righteous Believer when they have The L-rd Jesus their Great High Priest? 

Well, why don't you tell me why you would ask me or your spouse to pray for you. Since Christ is the sole mediator, as you put it, why would you want a friend to intercede on your behalf? Answer: Because the Word of God commands it! Refer back to the Scripture which says we are all to be mediators in the ONE mediator. This is why. Secondly, God chooses to use us, His Body, to propsper in the gifts given to us to use. Third, Scripture tells us that sin affects God's ability to hear our prayers. James 5:16 says 'the prayer of a righteous one availeth much'. If they are in Heaven, made perfect by God, I'd say the saints are much more righteous than you or I. Their prayer is stronger because they are without sin.

GS...with all due respect the type of mediators we are on earth is vastly different from the position of the L-rd Jesus before the Father...I am talking about the uniqueness that Jesus has...no one can come to the Father but through Him...we didn't die for anyone...we don't cleanse anyone with our blood...we cannot save people and give them eternal life. He is the Shepherd...He is the door...no one else.

We are to continue to offer sacrifices to God and God alone. Catholicism does not make sacrifices to saints or Mary. But think about what a sacrifice IS--it's an intercession to God on behalf of His people! In Catholicism, it's the priest who does this FOR us. The priest, therefore, is doing what Peter commands and what Paul commands in making intercessions for us.

Well its good that a priest would pray for the people under his care...and I cherish the prayers of my Pastors and Elders but I thank G-d for all those G-dly people who uphold me and my family in prayer...and I am very conscious of making sure my life is clean and holy before G-d so that my own prayers will not be hindered.

I said..

If there are no examples that truely back up this baffling doctrine then why do many Christians persist in sustaining it and adding unnecessary confusion and inevitable division to the body of Christ!

to which you replied

We've already shown that examples are in Scripture and in the everyday workings of the Christian Church--what more do you want? I've yet to see a single reference saying it was EVER contrary to Christian teaching to pray to God thru saints.

Er...no we haven't shown water tight Scriptural examples!

Nor in the everyday workings of the Christian Church as evidenced through Scripture.

Prayer opens up a line of communication between the one praying and the one receiving the prayer....we are not to communicate with departed spirits..surely a little G-dly wisdom can see the dangers involved,the comparisons that will be made (as some have already done on this thread) and the unbiblical position of such a doctrine.

By saying the saints are dead and ineffectual, we deny that Christ's Resurrection was what he said it was--an intercession to the Father to make all creation among the living again. The devil WANTS us to disavow the saints because, in doing so, you disavow the one who elected them--Jesus.

I have been at pains to show that whatever position those who have died in Christ now hold it is not up to us to try and communicate with them...praise G-d that He is the G-d of the living...and I take your point regarding this...and that we whether we live or die are all part of the body of Christ...each has a part to play...but the hidden things belong to G-d and we should not meddle with what we do not know.

Your brother in Christ...Botz.

[ServingHim]

So why did you choose the Catholic religoon?

I chose it because it is the Truth...the fullness of the Truth, which is Christ Jesus! :il:

[GoodSamaritan]

Circular reasoning means that a person begins with a conclusion that is assumed to be corect, and then works backwards to "prove" it.

Once again, you make the assertion but don't tell me WHY. What assumption does the Catholic Church make that any other Christian 'denomination' does not? I certainly did not make any assumptions with regard to the saints. Remember, we went through every point on that line to make sure it was Scritpural (even though we Catholics don't hold Scripture as the SOLE rule of faith, per Scripture's command).

I've got no problem with the criticism of my faith but i'll need more than you've provided with regard to Saints or any other doctrine/dogma. Just calling it 'circular' doesn't help.

I am not 100% clear on the state of those that have died in Christ...it seems that some are now in Heaven...such as Moses,and Elijah and the other Old Covenant Saints who were set free from Sheol when Jesus died and rose again...others are asleep in Christ and await the Ressurection...but all are alive to Christ whether they live or die...because nothing can separate us from the love of G-d...not even death...but there also remains a bodily ressurection.

Look at the entire context of the verse you cite here. It's actually giving you the answer you want regarding the 'dead':

Now if Christ be preached, that he arose again from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again.

And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain: and your faith is also vain.

Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God: because we have given testimony against God, that he hath raised up Christ, whom he hath not raised up, if the dead rise not again.

For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again.

And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain: for you are yet in your sins.

Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

In verse 12, Paul says (paraphrasing) 'How in the world can you say that there is no resurrection of those who have left this earth? If you deny this, you deny Christ's saving power!' Verse 16 says, 'For if the dead rise not again (present tense, not future), neither is Christ risen (present tense). This is what I meant when I said yesterday that if you deny the Saints are in Heaven, you deny Christ's Resurrection and call the Apostles liars.

Check out v. 35 and on:

But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? Or with what manner of body shall they come?

Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first.

And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be: but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest.

But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body.

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption: it shall rise in incorruption.

It is sown in dishonour: it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness: it shall rise in power.

It is sown a natural body: it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written:

The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

Those who are risen (and there ARE those who are risen, Scripture tells us) are given an incorruptible nature. This explains why saints are able to appear in dreams to people, appear in apparitions to people, and affect earthly things.

When Moses appeared to the L-rd along with Elijah...I do not recall them speaking to Peter,James and John...but to the L-rd...and it might well be that they continually pray in the presence of the Father in the courts of Heaven...but we are never in anyway encouraged through Scripture to approach G-d through them or anyone other than Jesus.That and the appearance of Samuel were exceptional events that G-d allowed to take place...but they are far removed from being proof positive that we should petition them...rather they were sent by G-d to convey His will.

Things do not happen as coincidence with God. Was it a coincidence that the meeting of Jesus, Elijah, and Moses took place within the view of humans? Are we or are we not supposed to imitate Christ? Well, Christ had contact with spiritual beings who were obviously alive and incorrupt. We, being of flesh, are limited in our abilities to communicate with the saints and so no two way communication takes place.

You say Scripture never encourages us to petition them--this is an argument from silence. I believe the OPPOSITE to be true. Check out Job 5:1:

Job 5:1:

Call now! Will anyone respond to you? To which of the holy ones will you appeal?

The Holy Ones in this verse are, of course, the angels, Heaven not being opened by Christ's resurrection yet. Job's three friends who are talking to him in chapter 5, are saying, "Job, you are wrong. You must not complain against God! See, you could even call on all the saints(angels are saints too) now to ask them to intercede for you, but they won't, because you are wrong!"

The assumption here is that the Jews believed in petitioning the saints; it wasn't some invented doctrine but a fulfillment of the Jewish doctrine/type. Remember, in the OT, the type is always immeasurably inferior to the reality of the NT fulfillment. So it goes with the saints.

If praying to dead people or communicating to dead people who were now in the spiritual dimension were ever allowed or encouraged then it would be self-evident throughout the Scriptures...the Psalms would contain poetic references..Kings and prophets and priests would all have practised it and we would not be arguing about it now. Also it is a fact that Samuel was dead...he had physically died...but he was in a spiritual realm.

First, you still haven't proven the saints (or angels, for that matter) to be dead because they are in Heaven. If you look at the OT, angels have always been intercessors between humans and God. You see instances of Isaiah's sins being forgiven when an angel touches his lips--subordinate mediation.

In Baruch 3:4, Baruch asks God to 'hear the prayers of the dead of Israel'. What does this mean?

Zechariah 1:8-13 shows people of Israel speaking to an angel regarding their captivity and suffering. The angel petitions God saying: 'O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem, and on the cities of Juda, with which thou hast been angry? this is now the seventieth year.'

God answers the angel with: 'Cry thou, saying: Thus saith the Lord of hosts: I am zealous for Jerusalem, and Sion with a great zeal.'

Is this the Heavenly intercession you're looking for? Here is a clear example of how the communion of saints works, only the NT saints are the fulfilled version of the type you see here. We're not saying that we worship saints or give them what we give God. Those of us on earth invoke the prayers of the saints in heaven, honor them as glorified Christians and seek to imitate them. They also pray for the souls in purgatory. THe veneration of saints/devotions to angels and saints no more interfere and corrupt the glory of God than does the love we have toward friends and family. It's more than merely mental inspiration. God's glory is reflected in his sons and daughters. They are venerated because God is present in them. A good analogy is the painter who is most honored when his masterpiece is complimented, because he knows such praise reflects back on himself. At any rate, i appreciate the respectful discourse we've had--i'm late for a pre-Mass rosary! God be with you all!

GS

The Bible never says a lot of things--it doesn't say that it is the sole rule of faith, it doesn't say that the books in it are the CORRECT books, it never says that Jesus was fully God and fully man, it doesn't tell us who wrote the Book of Acts, and it doesn't tell us that the Holy Spirit is one of the three persons of the Trinity.

This does not hinder us from knowing the answers to these questions via the revelation made to the Church by Jesus.

What came first, the Church or NT Scripture? Answer: the Church. During all those years that the Christian world was without an infallible canon of Scripture, the Church was in force and petitioning saints.

[ServingHim]

I chose to be Catholic because I was born into it, like many people were born and raised in their religions. Like most Catholics, I was baptized as a baby, which technically means that I was accepted into the community of the Church and that my parents and godparents promised to the Church to raise me to be a person of faith in the Body of Jesus Christ. I chose again when I was fifteen and received the sacrament of Confirmation, which is a renewal of the baptismal promise...only this time, you are deciding yourself to be a Catholic.

I'm a member of the Church because I believe in its teachings and doctrines - even though it does need some serious reforms in a few areas. I'm actually sort of a Dorothy Day subset: a lot of my love for my religion comes from our social justice principles. Plus Vatican II reformed a lot of stuff and made mainline Catholicism more tolerant of other denominations and religions in general. But yeah, I believe in the trinity, the communion of saints, in Mary as an example for us all, an amazing woman to ask for help, and the basic, good Catholic stuff. I'm also into exploring my religion, and I've never been afraid to ask questions of it, yet I'm still a Catholic.

And as far as George Harrison goes, he is my hero and my favorite Beatle and an amazing musician. Even if he did leave Catholicism and then become Hindu.

Beautiful music, beautiful man.

"Shout in the name of the Lord and you'll be free, for the Lord is awaiting on you all, wait and see." ~ you guessed it, George

beautifully said... :il:

[ServingHim]

I think a lot of people are sort of anti-catholic because they've been taught to be that way. People believe a lot of things about it that imo amounts to old wives tales. I was taught that Catholics worship Mary and are all going to hell. That kind of scared me from investigating it further when I was younger. Anyway, I know better now after working around a lot of Catholics a few years back. I like to watch EWTN now-a-days.

Despite some of the problems going on in the Catholic Church today I think you are fortunate to have been born into it.

I agree, and thank you georgesgirl for posting this thread. You seem very tender, loving, and genuine, and very Christian. I chose the Catholic faith as an adult, at 37 years of age...and it was a very conscious decision. I agree with whoever else said on here that you're 'fortunate to have been born into the faith'. I wish I had been, but that was not, obviously, in God's plan, but that I made the adult, very conscious decision. God bless you dear. :il:

[ServingHim]

Okay, just anybody that knows, I'm curious.

But back to my original question...why do you think there is such a clear stigma around Catholics to a lot of Protestants

same reason, IMHO, that many 'walked away from Christ' in John 6:66...for many things are 'hard to understand', and it is easier to walk away, IMHO.