Catholicism

[Qun Mang]

This is where I have a problem. I believe with all my heart that God is all-loving of every one of His children. I understand the problem when one of His children "turns" from Him, but I don't believe that He would keep a person out of Heaven simply because they never in their lifetime had access to the Word of God. I don't believe he would allow someone to be in a position from which they could never be saved, which is what you seem to be saying about those who never have to opportunity to hear the Gospel.

Georgesbluegirl,

It's not a matter of "They never got a chance to hear the gospel."

but rather, "they haven't received Jesus Christ and believed."

Let's pretend that you are in a court room and you are guilty of many crimes,

The judge says you owe 500,000,000,000 dollars. You obviously say,

"There is no way I can pay it. I don't have that much money!" But I know that you are a "good" and loving Judge, therefore I know you will let me go. The judge replies you are right when you say that I am good and because of that, I am also just.

A judge must give justice, you break the law you have to pay for it or be punished.

Lets also say, you are headed to the jail cell and someone yells your name and says wait. There is someone here, that has paid your fine. YOu are free to go. justice has been satisfied.

The point is: Jesus paid your fine in full on the cross. All you have to do is accept that He and He alone did it, and pick up your cross and follow him.

There's also the matter of never accepting Christ because they never heard of Him. How can one follow someone unless they've heard of them first? To put it another way, such people have never denied Christ either. How does God handle that? My guess is He deals with it in the same or similar manner to when a young child or infant who never heard of Christ dies- whatever way that is. No, God does not owe us Heaven or anything, but I also believe that He is fair which may mean they are judged in a different way. What way? I don't know. I don't believe the Scripture tells us.

[georgesbluegirl]

My point was exactly what Qun is saying...if you never hear the Word, how can God hold you responsible as He would hold someone responsible for denying the Word? If a person never hears of Christ's sacrifice, whatever the circumstances, how can they be doomed? Salvation is not a matter of chance encounters. God is understanding and loving. This is what I believe. Living in a Western culture where Christianity is never far away, it is hard to understand living in a place where it is rare, if ever, spoken of. But there are many places like this. I don't believe people that never hear of Christ go to hell, that's the bottom line. For that matter, I believe that Jesus died for our sins and that all life reaches toward divinity and that He forgives the blindness of His people when they strive to live their lives toward him. Ever occur to you that we are all praying to the same God?

As for Gandhi...you may all disagree, but I find it hard to picture Gandhi in Hell. John Lennon, Malcolm X???

Edited August 23, 2004 by georgesbluegirl

[Qun Mang]

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that people who did great works like Ghandi cannot possibly be in hell. If anyone hears the Word then rejects it (and never accepts it before death) that person will be sentenced to eternity separated from God. And that does mean hell, as that is the only place one can be if separated from God.

It is hard to understand how God can turn people away, but He does it because he is just. Besides, would you want to be surrounded by people who reject you? They outnumber us believers and doers by far :oww: and so Heaven would not be the great place to be that it is.

[georgesbluegirl]

I wasn't misunderstanding you, I was agreeing with you about the first part, and then taking it the next step to my belief, which is that rejecting God and not being a Christian are not the same thing.

[georgesbluegirl]

For reference's sake....

Commentary from religioustolerance.com, documentation is authentic

The fate of non-Catholics, as expressed at Vatican II:

The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964) is one of many documents to come out of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council (often referred to as "Vatican II"). The Council was held in Rome between 1962 and 1965. Lumen Gentium" contains in its Chapter 1 an essay on "The Mystery of the church." Sections 14 to 16 describe the potential for salvation of: Followers of the Catholic Church,

Members of other Christian denominations, and

Believers of non-Christian religions. 5

The language is difficult to follow for a lay person. However, an "Assessment of this Council" was written "as an AID to study by Catholic Students of the Second Vatican Council. They contain material, some written in a journalistic style, for the American reader." In the section "The Constitution of the Church" the assessment reads:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

This statement would seem to include the possibility that seekers after God may attain salvation, even though they have not concluded that God exists. Presumably, the authors of this document define "God" in Roman Catholic terms as a super-human intelligence and personality with specific attributes, such as being omnipotent, omniscient, omnibeneficient, omnipresent, etc. This statement indicates that even some Agnostics and Atheists could be saved and attain heaven, if they sincerely sought this Christian God.

The "Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio" (1964) is one of nine decrees of Vatican II. It deals with Ecumenism, which the Catholic Church defines as the reuniting of all Christian faith groups under the authority of the pope. This includes Eastern Orthodox churches, the Anglican Communion, and Protestant denominations -- those who "came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church." Section 3 deals with "separated brethren" -- followers of Christian denominations which The document repeats the belief that the Roman Catholic church is the only true Christian church -- the only denomination which "has been endowed with all divinely revealed truth and with all means of grace." Other Christian denominations are considered deficient. But the document does recognize that salvation is possible through the Catholic church for followers of those separated faith groups. It recognizes other denominations as fellow Christians:

"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. ...it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

"Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ."

"The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation."

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

"Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God." (Footnote references deleted) 7

The "Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions: Nostra Aetate," (1965) is one of three declarations of Vatican II. 8 It states that: "[The Christian] God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth."

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these [non-Christian] religions."

"God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers..."

"...the [Roman Catholic] Church is the new People of God..."

"...the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation."

[Guest sinner2saint]

g-girl,

I know this is a horrible scenario, but I will use it to make a point.

Imagine if someone kidnapped your mother, raped her, cut her throat, and then stabbed her 40 times to make sure she was dead.

Should God punish that person?

(Oh, by the way, they have never heard the gospel before)

Men do not go to hell because they have never heard about Jesus.

They go to hell because they have sinned against God.

Read Romans 1:18-20. Verse 20 tells us that all men are without exuse for sinning against God.

See also Romans 2:14-15. God has given every person a conscience (knowledge of right and wrong) so that all men are without exuse.

If those who have never heard of Jesus will go to heaven, wouldn't it be better for us not to tell them about him? It would be better for us not to preach to them and thus bring condemnation upon them. If those who have never heard will go to heaven, wouldn't it be better that no one hear about Jesus?

Why then did Jesus command his disciples to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature"(Mark 16:15) ?

I believe it is clear that only those who make Jesus their Lord and Savior will be saved from hell.

BTW- you don't have to respond if you don't want to. Just wanted to give u something to think about.

[dwinkjr]

I just wanted to add one thing here. As many have said, God is a loving father, but he also is a JUST GOD. HE created a way for ALL mankind to be cleansed of sin and Saved Through Christ Jesus. The ONLY way to heaven is through him. Now what of those who have never heard the gospel? Honestly I donot know for sure and will not claim to. God Is God he can and will do HIS will. But I think from what scripture tells us he will be Just and stick to his word.

So let me ask this question. If you are driving down a road at 55 and get pulled over for speeding, and you say to the cop well Nobody told me the speed limit was 35 on this road. Do you think your gonna get a ticket? Yep, because ignorance is no exuse. Every Man, Woman, or Child is born with a hunger for God, and for Truth. Let us pray they all find it, and that we can be Servants of our Lord and Saviour and Spread the Gospel to those that are lost.

God Bless,

Dave

[Spiritual Warrior]

Imagine if someone kidnapped your mother, raped her, cut her throat, and then stabbed her 40 times to make sure she was dead.

Should God punish that person?

(Oh, by the way, they have never heard the gospel before)

Men do not go to hell because they have never heard about Jesus.

They go to hell because they have sinned against God.

That's powerful!

[georgesbluegirl]

Men do not go to hell because they have never heard about Jesus.

They go to hell because they have sinned against God.

Which is essentially what I am saying. The difference of opinion that we have going on in this conversation is whether or not it is a "sin" to be without Jesus if the sinner in question never even had the opportunity to receive Him. I'll cut out all arguing about other religions and Heaven etc, I just want to make this point. You can't equate driving a car and living - driving a car requires a license, which requires knowledge of implied responsibility. We are not required to have a license to live. We are not born with the absolute understanding that we are supposed to reach for God. It is the responsibility of ourselves and those around us to lead us to understanding of the divine. "Responsibility" has nothing to do with the unsaved man or woman who has never had an opportunity to BE saved.

[georgesbluegirl]

Every Man, Woman, or Child is born with a hunger for God, and for Truth. Let us pray they all find it

Depending on our culture, we find God different ways. It just is.