ORIGINAL SIN

[dwinkjr]

For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Whether you realize you have sinned or not is a moot point. God see our every action and knows ALL have sinned. But through Christ Jesus those sins have been forgiven.

God Bless,

Dave

[BobTriez]

For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Whether you realize you have sinned or not is a moot point. God see our every action and knows ALL have sinned. But through Christ Jesus those sins have been forgiven.

God Bless,

Dave

Quite true Dave....in addition to that thought, I guess I'd add this passage -

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

God bless,

Bob

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

Hi Steve, if the verse about guilt is not in the Bible, then you should doubt that. As Katholish said, there should be concept, and can you find the concept?

Before answering the question about guilt, let's examine what a SIN means. A sin is an action against the will of God, it is a completely free action, because God gave us freedom to decide whether to be with Him or not. So, sin is a free action of an individual, and only that individual bears the responcibility for his own actions. God gave the free will to everyone, not just to the father, to Adam, so that he could choose for everybody...

So, the guilt of sin is not inherited. We are not guilty of our fathers' sins, because its rediculous and has no sence. Sin is not a debt that our predeccesors did not pay and so it comes to us. No, spiritual matters are not of this earth, and there are no generations-long debts. A debt is on one person's soul.

But what then is inherited, if we all still sin? Like it was said many times -- sinfullness. It is a state of a soul crippled by evil. Sin is evil, and when it enters the soul, the soul becomes less like God, and therefore opposite of Him -- hate finds refuge in it, pride, vainglory, lust, gluttony, rememberance of evil, jeloucy. The soul becomes spiritually ill, drawn away from God, from the light. Death is the consequence of sinfulness, as opposed to life as a concequence of purity. This damaged nature cannot give birth to a healty one, to purity. So we inherit not guilt for somebody else's sin, but sinfulness and its consequence -- death. That is why all people before Christ went to Hell after their phisical death, into spiritual death.

And Christ came not to wash away the guilt of Adam's sins (because we should take the account of all the sins of all of our predecessors, and that is one huge pile of guilt), but to cure our souls from sinfulness, deliver us from death. He came not to die, but to resurrect. He came not to take the guilt for Himself, but to defeat the devil and make us able to get back to the light. Adam made us sinful, but Christ came to make us pure again.

Let me say something about His incarnation and resurrection. Christ is God, and He came into earth as a man. With that act, He sanctified human nature and made it able of receiving the curing energy of the Holy Spirit. He died on the cross in a natural way, like a man, and descended into Hell where all men went at those times. In Hell, He revealed His divinity and destroyed it from within. It is not that place where sinners go, but that Kingdom, mighty and strong, the Kingdom of Satan. And then something incredible happened. God the Son resurrected, and with Him resurrected the human nature of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, being one person both Divine and human, resurrected and thus He defeated death that possessed the souls of men. He broke the ties of hell, and we became able to become like God and to live in the life everlasting.

And to accept that cure, we must baptise and commune. These sacraments give us the Holy Spirit, the cure, to help us in our spiritual grouth. Sinful nature cannot be overcome but by many works: "Though many temptations it is necessary for us to enter into the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22). We shall be made pure by prayer and fasting (Mathew 17:21) , and then we can become like God -- perfect (Mathew 5:48, 2 Cor 13:11). So, one death of Christ is not enough for us to become perfect (although for some it was), but choosing God, we must choose Him to the very end, and do anything to be purified. And God will help us in that (in practice, we cannot do anything good for ourselves, but only to CHOOSE to do good, and God will do the works for us -- that is the exit from the dilemma of common Protestant thought: how are we saved -- by works or by faith alone?).

If sin was a guilt, then one sacrifice of the Son of God would be enough for us to be cleansed of the sin of Adam. And everyone would become perfect. We see that everybody remains sinful after baptism, and thus the sinful nature is not cured (but sometimes is forgotten and is not noticed), but it is cured by humility and meekness, by love and mercy -- meaning by adopting God's qualities, becoming LIKE HIM. And then we could move mountains -- LIKE HE DOES, and make a fig tree dry -- LIKE HE DOES, and walk upon the water -- LIKE HE DOES, only because we love our enimies LIKE HE DOES. But to be able to do that, we need to be baptised -- to die and accept the new birth of spirit.

This is how the early Christians believed. In addition, I would disclose a secret to you that there was no this idea of angry God in the times of early Church. God is love, and He does not have anger or a "bad temper" or jeloucy. He is described like that in the Old Testament only to implant fear of God in rough ancient Jews who could follow His commandments only of a fear. So, for God sin is but a drop in the sea, and He forgives it in notime, we should only ask. He truly loves His children, and how can He be angry at them? He gave us a free choice to decide, and when one uses it against Him, well, how can He be angry at that person? That was His original idea -- men can FREELY choose either good or evil. But with choosing that man chooses the consequence also -- Heaven or Hell, life or death, to be with or without God, pleasure or punishment, etc. God does not punish -- surprise! But it is us who punish ourselves. We choose death by ourselves, and God does not "put" us in Hell. We go there by ourselves -- to the place where there is no God, Light, love and life. That is what we have chosen. That is what the Early Church believed, according to the teaching of the Apostles. God cannot hate, because He is God, the picture and exapmle of Love.

This is a deep and long explanation of your short and simple question, Steven. But you cannot speak about one thing not touching upon others, for everything is connected and affects each other. I am sorry that I cannot give you enough Bible verses to support my words. But I tell you what -- read the Bible with this thought that I told you in mind, and everybody, and you will see that all verses fit in this lookout. Because this lookout is the original, and upon it was the New Testament written and composed. And this original lookout has grown into a beautiful and logical early Christianity, where the ways to perfection were studied, experienced and written down in hundreds of books. Many people today discover a great use in those books, and strive to reach perfection and become like God.

Hope that makes sense to you. Tatiana

[BobTriez]

Steve ?

[stevehut]

Steve ?

I'm here, Bob.

[Khristeeanos]

I certainly believe that we are born with a tendency to sin, but we are innocent of such sin because we don't know good from evil.

Ezekiel made it clear (was it 18, 33?) that a child will not be punished for the sins of his father.

Deuteronomy (2) says that the children who have no knowledge of good or evil would inherit the land

Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven belonged to children.

I just wanted to post these references again. Yes all have sinned, but I don't think it is talking about children because we already have passages that say children have no knowledge of good or evil.

Psalm 51 is a poem of repentance. It also begs God to not take the Holy Spirit from him, something that most people believe can't happen either.

I think that it is not meant literally. When we are broken of our sins before God and are repenting, we tend to be a little hard on ourselves.

Consider that David broke all 10 Commandments in a very short time and spent at least 9 months unrepentant. We can understand why he made such a comment.

[stevehut]

So, the guilt of sin is not inherited. We are not guilty of our fathers' sins

This would seem to be at odds with what I've heard about Orthodox doctrine which (in this area) is very close to Catholicism.

Or did I misunderstand you?

[stevehut]

Bear in mind that original sin ( the definition of it ) does not refer to the first sin that Adam & Eve committed; rather it refers to the result of that sin.

Are you familiar with Augustine's teaching on the matter?

[Guest Called]

I thought that this verse answered the question quite well.

Psalm 51:3-5

3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me.

4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge.

5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

[BobTriez]

Bear in mind that original sin ( the definition of it ) does not refer to the first sin that Adam & Eve committed;  rather it refers to the result of that sin.

Are you familiar with Augustine's teaching on the matter?

Probably not ? But really I'm only concerned with what the Bible has to say on it.

I guess my question would be - if we are not born sinful, why can't anyone live a sin free life ? And I mean from birth. Surely someone amongst all the billions of people to have ever lived would be able to beat the odds and be a prodigy as such.......yet the Bible tells us that ALL have sinned; and more so, to even say we are or can be without sin makes God a liar and we are without the truth ( 1 John 1:8-10 ). To me, coupled with scripture, would indicate that something terrible happened when Adam and Eve sinned.....a spiritual death that's passed on from their offspring and ours ( Genesis 3:15-22 ).

Original sin means we are a fallen race. I've already provided scripture to support that we are dead in sin ( Ephesians 2:1 ), and also to support that through Adam, death and sin entered the world and all subsequent inhabitants are subjected to this curse ( Roman 5:12 ).

But I thing the best evidence, is Psalm 51 as Debbie reiterated above. I think this ( Psalm 51 ) is more than a simple lamentation of his heart due to his ( David's ) guilt. 2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is useful for instruction.....to me, this seems a black & white issue.

The whole theme of the Bible is

- God created everything good

- Adam messed it up

- We, being Adam's descendents are subjected to his sin

- God provided a way out and sent Jesus out of LOVE for us

- We now have a choice......live in our sinful nature OR follow Him and have eternal life

Original sin doesn't absolve us from culpability of our transgressions, rather it points to the fact that we are and must be 100 % dependant on GOD to save us....there simply was nor is there any way out of our sinful state.....only through Jesus ( God ) can we be delivered from it. It's all about Him, not us.

These are my thoughts on it Steve, and now I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. Otherwise it's not a discussion is it ?

God bless,

Bob