ORIGINAL SIN

[stevehut]

THERE IS NOTHING 'ORIGINAL' ABOUT SIN AT ALL...

ITS ALL JUST ANOTHER CHEAP COUNTERFIET.

Huh?

[stevehut]

1- Didn't you try to read something Orthodox?

2 -And let me restate my (and Orthodox) position: guilt cannot be inherited because a sin is an action of a personal free will.

1- Yup, sure did.

2- Are you familiar with what the Orthodox Confession has to say about it?

Hey Orthodox Christian, are you going to answer my q?

[His son]

And I will humbly disagree with your interpretation of election.

Based on scripture or based on your feelings? If you have a different view that is based on scripture please feel free to share it along with the verses that support your view.

Actually, my interpretation of "election" is the classical and only interpretation that there is. There are not several versions of the the doctrine of Election;

1.If you believe that God chooses men 100% this is called "Election".

2.If you believe that man has something to do with choosing God this is called "Wrong"...smile. This view is what leads to misunderstandings about children, mentally-retarded, and people who never heard the gospel.

So there are really only two interpretations of how salvation occurs;

1.God chooses

2.Man chooses.

truthnluv

False Doctrine is the name for it.

Election (predestination) is the result of God's foreknowledge of every freewill choice we will ever make.

God's justice is pure, so man is accountable for what He knows, and understands.

God has written that every knee will bow, and every tounge confess that Jesus is Lord, so everyone will have the same opportunity to exercise their freewill to choose.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so everything applies to everybody the same.

God's ways, and thoughts are much higher than ours so we don't have to understand the how, when, and or why, just believe.

His communications to us The Bible, and The Holy Spirit are on an individual as needed abasis and geared to each one of our intelectual abilities. That's what makes God's justice, and His word so pure.

[lifesharer]

Stevehut , the lack of real answers to your question is typical of so many christians, saddly.

"Original sin" is not a complete statement unless you add "nature". In scriptures

it is also called the "Adamic sin nature". In scriptures this speak of the results of Adam's sin, NOT to "sin" itself.

When Adam sinned his spirit lost that intimate "face to face" communion with God. This is why God said " Where art thou to Adam", to signify this new state Adam was in. This state of being "dead ( spiritualy, to God) in tresspasses and sins" is what we all recieved from Adam. Our spirits TOO have been cut off since all men have sinned them selves. Truthfully, even this state is not passed on by genetics or our natures, but because sin entered the world and has corrupted the world and all men have followed suit we say it is our sin nature from Adam.

The answer to the sin nature is found in a number of verses: Ro. 2: 28-28+ Col. 2: 11-14 , John 3:6, and Ezekiel 11: 19 and jeremiah 31: 33; all are about what scriptures calls "regeneration". This LITERAL rebirth / restoration of our spirit and the freeing of it from the overwhelming of it by our flesh and soulical nature (carnal nature in scriptures) is reversed and our spirit is then able to have that intimate communion again. The results being the power to overcome our flesh ( John 3:8 + Gal. 5: 16-17 + ro. 8: 1-17) to be able to be led again in a personal relationship with the holy Spirit ( John 3:8 + ro. 8: 1-17) to participate in Gods KINGDOM ( john 3:5 , Matt 19: 28) to become spiritualy mature to the measure and stature of Christ ( ephesians 4: 13), the ability to rightly divide the word and to know Gods perfect will ( 1Cor. 2: 9-16), to exercise spiritual gifts like spiritual discernment ( John 3:3, 1Cor. 2:15) and exercise Gods power and authority. These are precious and powerful truths and it is clear why satan has made a mess in most christians minds as to what this is all about.

God in Christ has made a way to deal with that "old man" nature by regeneration and faith to walk in obediance to the Spirit by your renewed spirit ( newness of life / new creation / divine nature / spiritual man etc.

SO rejoice and if you have time; read the subject in doctrinal questions titled " Regeneration ".

Or write to me at yahoo ( same name ) for the bible study i have prepared on this.

Sincerly,

lifesharer

[ray]

Orginal sin, yes I believe in it because without orginal sin there would be no need for HIS ORGINAL LOVE :dove :prayer

Edited October 14, 2004 by ray

[Work in Progress]

Truthnluv - all I can say is "Wow!!".

[Guest savedbythepassion]

I certainly believe that we are born with a tendency to sin, but we are innocent of such sin because we don't know good from evil.

Ezekiel made it clear (was it 18, 33?) that a child will not be punished for the sins of his father.

Deuteronomy (2) says that the children who have no knowledge of good or evil would inherit the land

Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven belonged to children.

I just wanted to post these references again. Yes all have sinned, but I don't think it is talking about children because we already have passages that say children have no knowledge of good or evil.

Psalm 51 is a poem of repentance. It also begs God to not take the Holy Spirit from him, something that most people believe can't happen either.

I think that it is not meant literally. When we are broken of our sins before God and are repenting, we tend to be a little hard on ourselves.

Consider that David broke all 10 Commandments in a very short time and spent at least 9 months unrepentant. We can understand why he made such a comment.

DIME

Yes all have sinned, but I don't think it is talking about children because we already have passages that say children have no knowledge of good or evil.

Under this scenario, we do a disservice when we try to help women find alternatives to abortion. After all, abortion is a free ticket for the unborn child to heaven. Why subject him/her to a choice of hell?

[lifesharer]

As I shared before : this " tendancy to sin" is simply our spirit being cut off from God and not having His holiness and truth as the standard from which to "Judge all things" (1Cor. 2: 15) this is part of what regeneration corrects. The "Spiritual mechanics" of this is simple. By connecting regeneration ( John 3:6 + Ro. 2: 28-29 and Col. 2: 11-14) with 1 Peter 3: 21 and 1Cor. 2: 9-16 you can see how this happens. When our spirit is in the unregenerated state we must then rely on our soulical intellect and fleshly desires to motivate us (this is what scriptures calls a "carnal" man ( ro. 7: 14, 8:7 and specificaly 1 Cor. 3:1-6. This nature is also called : the old man, the Adamic sin nature, in your flesh and other terms.

In this contectual frame then we apply simple logic and common sense:

An child may indeed have a "cut -off spirit" (unregenerated) from God from the time of conception , OR POSSIBLY NOT, but remains innocent of an actual "sin" itself. Until such time as the child does sin it remains innocent of committing sin and scriptures refer to how God "reveals himself to babes". a "BABE" THEN,... MAY HAVE INTIMATE COMMUNION AND THE " SIN NATURE" COMES NOT BY BIRTH BUT BECAUSE SIN IS IN THE WORLD. And so this "sin nature" of a dead spirit cut off from God is not confered until that child entertains some sinful action. This last seems to me to be the actual state of spiritualityin a baby. Sin is like the veil that hangs between the holy place and holy of holies . It is thicker from our point of view than from God's. Sin tends to drive a wedge of guilt and shame between God and a child so that it is more difficult for them to percieve Him rather than hindering Him in percieving us. Furthermore, guilt tends to make us turn away from God by hardening our hearts and causing us to feel shame, see Adam and Eve hidding from God in genesis. Continuing and increasing until such time as our "conscience is seared" by it (1Tim. 4:2). Hardening of the heart is the type for a very calouse person in deep self deception (hypocricy). This last scripture refering to the fullness of being spiritualy cut off from God by "tresspasses and sins" even after having been saved!. A child, up to a certian age depending up each child independantly, has not yet personaly done a sin! Now: "sin" is defined in it's purest sense as disobeying Gods perfect holy will. And Gods perfect Holy will is the "Law" and Morality manifested to us.

Relative moral humanism is one product of the spiritualy consciense-less state. ( again see 1peter 3: 21 [do not confuse this with consciousness or awareness]) Inability to discern real holiness and truth from deceptions is another effect of this conscience-less state of unregeneration. NO wonder God wants us to train a child up in the way it should Go since the younger a child has been brought to salvation and regeneration the less burden of sins committed, they carry. Thank God for the blood of Christ which washes us from all sin and enables us to have intimate communion with God again through regeneration. It appears that Finney may have been such, as was Rees Howell, another mighty man of God . Please read about them as they are unusual in many ways.

Also; child does not have as much to unlearn about sin and selfishness as an adult either, which means they will be easier to bring to spiritual maturity and may have had less " strongholds" in thier life. Such, I believe, was Charles Finney and Rees Howell because they remained while growing up, largly decent and good souls as a look at thier lives will show.

Calvanist's will disagree heartily with what i just said since they dogmaticaly define sin nature as a overall degeneration of man making us unable to be good in any sense. Yet Jesus said: 'if you being evil are able to to do good to your children....'.

There are men who try to do good in thier lives with the limited understanding of what it is from thier unregenerated view. Jesus said it like this; "Greater love has no MAN than that he lay down his life for his friend." (emphasis mine) But those who Know Jesus in intimate communion realize that GOD died for us while we did not even care to know him! Such selfless love is God's provenance alone! Jesus died for his enemies! WE can learn this type of love if we will only be crucified with Christ.

Lifesharer

[lifesharer]

saved by the Passion:

I MUSt respond independantly to your last assertion. we do NOT know for a fact that such an unborn will esacpe hell! ..... My DISERTATION NOT WITHSTANDING! and we do NOT have the RIGHT to choose such a possibility. What MAN can say what Gods purposes for any child/ adult may be! And God never gave MAN the right to kill INNOCENT children FOR COMFORT OR MERELY SELFISH REASONS. (the admittedly rare medical cases and life of the mother arguments aside!)

God will NOT be mocked by such a peverting of good decent moral truths as to think we can choose to send babies to heaven. Such backwards thinking is what satanist might use to justify thier peverse desires!. i am shocked and dismayed by such a statement from a "Christian"!

EVEN IF IT IS TRUE THAT THEY WOULD GO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN , THEY REMAINS "BABES" SPIRITUALY FOR ETERNITY AND DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION TO NOT BE, AND ANY PURPOSE GOD MAY HAVE HAD IN THIER BIRTH AND LIFE IS THWARTED!

I sense the spiritual darkness that surrounds such a statement as you made as much as it did the Nazis justifing the killing of Jews as " Christ killers". Such thinking is relative moralistic humanism and not from God!

lifesharer

[Guest savedbythepassion]

lifesharer,

I MUSt respond independantly to your last assertion. we do NOT know for a fact that such an unborn will esacpe hell!

Therefore, you assert that abortion does not give a free ticket to heaven to the aborted unborn? Or is this dependent upon election?

I must assume that you do believe in original sin that condemns SOME unborn, but not all.