Christians and Guns?

[The_Patriot21]

He drew the sword to protect Jesus, and as Ive already pointed out, Jesus told him to put the sword away-even slightly rebuked peter for his actions, but did not tell Peter to get rid of the sword. And yes, He also healed the soldiers ear-which is a good point, theres a lot to be learned here, for example we need to stop at defense-and make sure that what were doing is indeed defending ourselves, and not an act of revenge-i.e. stop shooting when the threat is neutralized. Another valid point-is to love our enemies-Jesus showed that here by healing the soldiers ear. If we have to defend ourselves-after the fact, we need to forgive the person attacking us, and show them Christs love.

[AnotherSinner]

He drew the sword to protect Jesus, and as Ive already pointed out, Jesus told him to put the sword away-even slightly rebuked peter for his actions, but did not tell Peter to get rid of the sword. And yes, He also healed the soldiers ear-which is a good point, theres a lot to be learned here, for example we need to stop at defense-and make sure that what were doing is indeed defending ourselves, and not an act of revenge-i.e. stop shooting when the threat is neutralized. Another valid point-is to love our enemies-Jesus showed that here by healing the soldiers ear. If we have to defend ourselves-after the fact, we need to forgive the person attacking us, and show them Christs love.

Patriot, those are some valid and good points. While I may not share your perspective, I do respect where it is coming from. If you were around me with a gun, I do not feel I would have anything to fear from you. As also stated, it is the person who kills...not the weapon.

[jasoncran]

not to be a nay sayer on that but well i will put it out there.

HOW DOES ONE love the very man who is about to kill you or your loved one and then say at that moment after you have shot him and he is dead i forgive you? or when you have served in combat and must take the enemies life? its not said in vain kill with extreme prejudice for no reason. if someone tries to hurt that bears cub that mama bear will act with extreme anger and veangeance to ensure that no harm comes to her cub.

there is a time for that to be allowed.im not saying dont forgive them but i wont be an overnight thing or at that moment after its over.

[AnotherSinner]

not to be a nay sayer on that but well i will put it out there.

HOW DOES ONE love the very man who is about to kill you or your loved one and then say at that moment after you have shot him and he is dead i forgive you? or when you have served in combat and must take the enemies life? its not said in vain kill with extreme prejudice for no reason. if someone tries to hurt that bears cub that mama bear will act with extreme anger and veangeance to ensure that no harm comes to her cub.

there is a time for that to be allowed.im not saying dont forgive them but i wont be an overnight thing or at that moment after its over.

That...Jason, my friend...is where we fall short and need to strive to be more like Jesus. For He was beaten, spat on, tormented, and killed for no reason...other than the simple fact, He was who He said He was. It is His example we are to follow. I do not think....though I cannot say I can speak for Him, that He wanted us killing one another....

[AnotherSinner]

An interesting point was made here earlier in this thread: Peter drew a sword...and cut off a man's ear who came to arrest Jesus. Did he do this to protect himself? No.... Could he have done it to protect Jesus? Maybe.... yet...Jesus healed the man, one of those who came to destroy Him. Are we perhaps forgetting an important message here?

People miss the reason, and importance of this story. It has nothing to do with self-defense. It has nothing to do with some supposed "due authority." The people coming for Jesus did not have the authority to arrest him. Everything they did was illegal and done in secrecy because of it. The reason Jesus chastened Peter for his act was because all this was planned, and Jesus was orchestrating it. None of it was a surprise to Him. Had Peter done a Jackie Chan and succeeding in driving off the people who had come to arrest Christ, he would have been circumventing the plan. Peter was defending Jesus with his actions and attempting to protect Him. People use this as fodder to adopt a pacifist attitude and then force others to do the same, but that isn't the point of the story. Jesus came here to be killed and resurrected. That was his purpose all along, the "End Game." Peter would have short-circuited that purpose, even perhaps only briefly, but he would have altered it and that is why Jesus rebuked Him.

Yes, all was done illegally and wrongly to the very core with Jesus. There was a not a part of it that was legal or right. Is that the only reason you think He was rebuked? What of Jesus' message of loving one's enemy. No one showed a greater example of that than Jesus.

[The_Patriot21]

not to be a nay sayer on that but well i will put it out there.

HOW DOES ONE love the very man who is about to kill you or your loved one and then say at that moment after you have shot him and he is dead i forgive you? or when you have served in combat and must take the enemies life? its not said in vain kill with extreme prejudice for no reason. if someone tries to hurt that bears cub that mama bear will act with extreme anger and veangeance to ensure that no harm comes to her cub.

there is a time for that to be allowed.im not saying dont forgive them but i wont be an overnight thing or at that moment after its over.

It has to do with intent, if someone were to come after ones wife with a knife and try and injure her or even succeed at doing so, it is very easy to lose control and not only stop the man-say, you fire a shot and wound the guy, and he stops the attack, but then to shoot again to finish him off out of vengeance. I love my wife, and can say that I would face that temptation. But no-the loving thing would be to call 911 and get the guy medical attention, and while no, sitting there at the curb saying "I forgive you" may not necessarily be good timing, it probably wouldnt hurt to pray for the man and perhaps give him a Bible when hes in the hospital. There is a difference between shooting someone in defense-and shooting someone out of vengeance or malice, if its in defense, your only goal is protect you and your family-your not doing it cuz you hate the guy whos attacking, your simply doing it to protect those you love.

[jasoncran]

not to be a nay sayer on that but well i will put it out there.

HOW DOES ONE love the very man who is about to kill you or your loved one and then say at that moment after you have shot him and he is dead i forgive you? or when you have served in combat and must take the enemies life? its not said in vain kill with extreme prejudice for no reason. if someone tries to hurt that bears cub that mama bear will act with extreme anger and veangeance to ensure that no harm comes to her cub.

there is a time for that to be allowed.im not saying dont forgive them but i wont be an overnight thing or at that moment after its over.

It has to do with intent, if someone were to come after ones wife with a knife and try and injure her or even succeed at doing so, it is very easy to lose control and not only stop the man-say, you fire a shot and wound the guy, and he stops the attack, but then to shoot again to finish him off out of vengeance. I love my wife, and can say that I would face that temptation. But no-the loving thing would be to call 911 and get the guy medical attention, and while no, sitting there at the curb saying "I forgive you" may not necessarily be good timing, it probably wouldnt hurt to pray for the man and perhaps give him a Bible when hes in the hospital. There is a difference between shooting someone in defense-and shooting someone out of vengeance or malice, if its in defense, your only goal is protect you and your family-your not doing it cuz you hate the guy whos attacking, your simply doing it to protect those you love.

it all depends on how he reacts, but as my cop training says, shoot till the threat is ceased. i spell k-i-l-l.

if he has a knife i will aim center mass with the inent to stop that heart beat. sorry that is what one should do. if not then you are a fool. im not saying double tapp, of course one should call the po-po. but really expect and plan to finish him off as in florida in order to be a legal shot it must only be the last option and then when its a life or harm to ones person and no escape is possible.

case in point the current zimmerman case. while he was attacked they say. he didnt have to engage that boy he could have waited till the cops got there. but we dont know all the details.

[AnotherSinner]

Yes, all was done illegally and wrongly to the very core with Jesus. There was a not a part of it that was legal or right. Is that the only reason you think He was rebuked? What of Jesus' message of loving one's enemy. No one showed a greater example of that than Jesus.

Because that was specifically the purpose He was sent for. That is not our purpose. All of us have different callings and different personal convictions. And as long as those personal convictions do not violate scripture forbidding whatever it is, then one is not sinning or wrong in their own personal convictions. One may feel it is acceptable to own a firearm. Another person may be convicted, personally, not to. Neither person is wrong. The key word is personal. It stops being personal when you attempt to either force or project your personal convictions onto someone else. That is where you get legalism. Some things are wrong no matter what. Cold-blooded murder: Always wrong. Adultery: Always wrong. Homosexuality: Always wrong. Theft: Always wrong. But a great many things people try and forbid others from doing and go around preaching about are not wrong and not morally forbidden. Take alcohol for instance. The Bible completely forbids and condemns drunkenness. But it does not forbid drinking alcohol. The line can get blurred as to what constitutes drunkeness, and there is the risk of eventually becoming dependent on the alcohol, but the use of alcohol is not prohibited. Smoking. Another legalist favorite. No scripture that forbids smoking. It isn't a smart thing to do. It does bad things to your witness and decreases the quality of your life. But you aren't going to go to hell for smoking. You are also not going to go to hell for shooting an intruder who has broken into your home and wants to rape your wife. Yes, Jesus said love your enemies. He did not say let them break into your home or business, let them beat you, take your personal belongings, harm your family. He meant, very specifically, don't go out of your way to inflict vengeance on someone who has slighted you. Something like you lie about me and get me fired at work. I am not supposed to attempt to inflict harm and revenge on you for doing so. That verse has nothing to do with self-defense.

Cobalt, you and I clearly do not see things the same way. I thank you though for your insight and will humbly agree to disagree but think and pray on all you have offered me here.

May God Bless You

Dani

[The_Patriot21]

It has to do with intent, if someone were to come after ones wife with a knife and try and injure her or even succeed at doing so, it is very easy to lose control and not only stop the man-say, you fire a shot and wound the guy, and he stops the attack, but then to shoot again to finish him off out of vengeance. I love my wife, and can say that I would face that temptation. But no-the loving thing would be to call 911 and get the guy medical attention, and while no, sitting there at the curb saying "I forgive you" may not necessarily be good timing, it probably wouldnt hurt to pray for the man and perhaps give him a Bible when hes in the hospital. There is a difference between shooting someone in defense-and shooting someone out of vengeance or malice, if its in defense, your only goal is protect you and your family-your not doing it cuz you hate the guy whos attacking, your simply doing it to protect those you love.

In a self-defense situation, you neutralize the threat. You do not simply try and stop the attack, you are supposed to, and are trained to render the attacker unable to attack you any further, by either wounding them so badly that they can no longer continue the attack, then or in the future, or killing them. If you are thinking about counseling them after the attack is over, giving them a Bible and praying with them, your mind isn't in the right place and you've already lost the fight. At that instant in time, the person attacking you or your wife is outside of the law and whatever happens to them from that point on is merited by their unlawful actions. They are responsible for whatever happens to them, no matter how bad it is. If they weren't there attacking you, they wouldn't be stopping a bullet, would they?

Your misunderstanding the whole scenario-yes, if someone is coming after me to threaten me, I will be shooting center mass. What Im getting at is if persay, you shoot the guy, he goes down, and he somehow manages to survive through it, so perhaps I should have said IF he survives, then we shouldnt go and put another in the poor guys head. . .this isnt just about guns, if you spray someone in the face with pepper spray, and take off you don't return 15 minutes later with a 12 gauge to finish the guy off, that would be revenge. Its common knowlege if your carrying a gun and your in a situation where you need to defend yourself you aim center mass, I understand that, what I was getting at was the intent behind the action, not necessarily the action itself.

[oldzimm]

If your going to take the responsibility to carry a gun to protect yourself or your love ones, you must shoot center mass until the danger is neutralized. (no matter if it is one bullet all the whole mag.)

If someone thinks that they will be calm enough to aim at a persons kneecap, so they don't have kill the attacker. All I can say is, chances are your going to miss and you or your love one is going to be hurt.

To be honest, at close range you won't have time to aim. The best thing you can do is practice "point an shoot" and at center mass. (instinctive shooting)